Popularity and acceptance of FMT. Who is to blame for why FMT will never be available? Ignorance, laziness, and apathy of the general public? How to motivate people to take action? Other

[Michael Harrop]

I'd assume, that 10-15 years down the line, when everyone is sick and suffering from chronic health issues, mass population will try FMT and FMT will get popularity and acceptance.

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This is completely erroneous. Chronic disease and poor health already afflict the vast majority of the population. They can't try FMT because safe and effective donors are not available, and will never be because people are too ignorant and lazy to do anything to make them so.

Not right now though because the rich, successful and socially adjusted people are living their life fully. They are too ignorant and un-empathetic to understand FMT and help out people like us who are looking to do FMT.

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They're not living their lives fully. Many of them are as unhealthy as anyone else. Nearly every week, I see the news cover a wealthy celebrity dying of a condition curable with FMT. They're as ignorant as lazy as anyone else.

 

[FMTdriver]

This is completely erroneous. Chronic disease and poor health already afflict the vast majority of the population. They can't try FMT because safe and effective donors are not available, and will never be because people are too ignorant and lazy to do anything to make them so

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This is not what I meant. And there is no need for your hostile and harsh tone for that Mr. Harrop.

Yes, you are right that nearly everyone (especially those living in cities) are suffering from chronic health issues or are on the path of it in upcoming years. Hardly anyone is healthy and has a perfect microbiome.

However, these people are still getting by in their lives. They are participating in society, have good social life and career. Someone who has diabetes, heart issues or any other metabolic/Chronic disease.won't have urgency of motivation to look into FMT and a FMT donor.

Why ? Because, as long as their career, money, social life is not getting affected much and are going smooth, they wouldn't bother. I confidently say this because this is what I see around me and this is what's the norm in most places if not all.

And I agree that they are lazy and ignorant. Even stupid. But I also say, that it will take more years for FMT acceptance and popularity among masses.

Until and Unless, an urgency arrives among these stupid ignorant and lazy masses, and they become bedridden and their lifestyle deteriorates, they won't understand or try FMT easily. And this will take some years to happen.

Same answer for rich, successful and socially adjusted people.

They are getting by in their lives. They are not bedridden and lonely, and living in survival mode like you and me. They just simply won't get it.

 

[Michael Harrop]

That was not a hostile or harsh tone.

Why ? Because, as long as their career, money, social life is not getting affected much and are going smooth, they wouldn't bother.

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There are plenty of people who are severely impacted in those areas of life by their health. They still do nothing.

I noted in other threads that I've contacted such groups (IE: CFS - chronic fatigue syndrome) and even went to an event in DC and spoke to them, and they cared as little as anyone. So the notion that people are all of a sudden going to get serious once they can't work or play is nonsense.

But I also say, that it will take more years for FMT acceptance and popularity among masses.

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This is never going to happen because it's a catch-22. You would need highly effective & safe donors to be available so that people see the miraculous impacts. And that will never happen because safe & effective donors will never be available without massive public demand.

Same answer for rich, successful and socially adjusted people.

They are getting by in their lives. They are not bedridden and lonely, and living in survival mode like you and me.

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This is wrong, and ignores what I said in my previous comment.

People always find someone else to blame to excuse their own inaction. What are YOU doing? The answer for nearly everyone is "nothing". The vast majority of people are to blame, including you.

If anything, you're even more to blame because you're well-informed on the potential of FMT, yet you're still doing nothing.

There is a related discussion in:
What is the public perception of FMT? How much does it matter? Has it been blocking progress?

 

[SFBayFMT5]

They are getting by in their lives. They are not bedridden and lonely, and living in survival mode like you and me. They just simply won't get it.

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I think this is exactly it. And even people who are possibly worse in terms of objective sickness (if you can even measure that) are often sick in more visible and empathizable, "socially acceptable" ways, and see less of a gap between their current ability level and where they could be at if they got the right treatment.

In many Lyme disease groups, there are many people who are quite sick, but are married, have kids, etc. Their world is centered around dealing with the stresses of their very real and otherwise integrated lives. Especially many of the women in those groups are like this. Contrast that with a rather different picture, of a young male who never managed to get settled in life, who doesn't have obvious disabilities like a limp or obesity or something like that, but is too irritable/inattentive/volatile to hold down a job, has maybe picked up some addictions, etc. The latter is in many ways more "in need of a miracle", but much more likely to be passed by and overlooked when the larger society is choosing how to allocate resources for finding cures.

People who are sick, but not on the fringes, are in my experience much less likely to endorse radical new treatments that are themselves not socially acceptable. They ARE likely to endorse treatments that come from outside accepted science, but these are things like chiropractors, "energy healing", applied kinesiology, etc. They seem to feel they have too much to lose by asking other people to give them bodily fluids and possibly risk being branded a weirdo rather than assuming an identity as a stressed out, overburdened sufferer.

Michael once mentioned that overweight and "visibly unhealthy" people seemed less likely to respond to his sign and/or spiel than people who looked fit and healthy. The way I explain that is that the second group of people imagined themselves as their best potential selves and therefore their egos/self-assessments saw more of a "win" in "rocking the boat". Whereas those who are visibly unhealthy see that unhealth as "just part of them", and they feel less resistance in embracing that to some degree.

 

[ButterflyShoeMill42]

Where are these healthy donors in America? Americans eat crap and even the best intentions of a parent cannot stop kids eating crap at friends' houses or parties or school lunches. I tried my hardest to feed my kids well 20 to 30 years ago when they were small, and once they experienced UPC food elsewhere, it was over. When I was looking for a donor, I couldn't trust anyone that I knew that they were healthy without spending tons on tests. Which is why I searched outside the US. So even if FMT were FDA approved, it would be hard to find donors in America. Maybe Amish or Mennonite communities. As someone who had Lyme, Bartonella, RMSF and a husband dying of cancer, life was not easy, but my FMT gave me my life back.

 

[Aim for NaN]

An idea rejected today can be accepted after 3 to 4 generations have passed. That is normally how long it takes for society as a whole to experience some kind of reset. Of course, we won't be able to see it, since we'll be dead by then, but the usefulness of ignorance, incompetence and laziness is such that by the time the next interval of the fourth generation comes along, all presuppositions, ideals, biases, etc, would likely either have no longer been remembered or would have been rejected because idiots believed themselves to be geniuses. In the same way that ignorance guides society's apathy, that same ignorance has been used to create entire movements. One stranger and a lot of hype goes a long way. Someone will figure out how to go viral.

 

[Michael Harrop]

Where are these healthy donors in America?

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There are plenty of healthy people in the US. Both ideal donors I found were in the US.

I couldn't trust anyone that I knew that they were healthy without spending tons on tests

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That is due to your own ignorance and poor judgment. Stool & blood tests are not a valid method of determining donor safety or efficacy, and that's been discussed & documented extensively on this forum and in the wiki. The information was available, but you didn't seek it out, review it, and take it into account, even though you came across it prior to your FMTs.

That's another example of the problems discussed in this thread. Even among people who are knowledgeable enough and motivated enough to pursue FMT, a majority of them exhibit ignorance and laziness, and opt to use low-quality donors and put no effort into making safe & effective donors available.

Maybe Amish or Mennonite communities

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Unlikely. This has been discussed in other threads. You don't seem to be learning from the information here.

Someone will figure out how to go viral.

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You could argue that South Park made it go viral, and that had very little impact. Few people have the motivation to make FMT go viral because they can't make money off of it. They'd also likely need a super-donor. Hoping that some random person will make FMT go viral and that will solve all of our problems seems like a fantasy.

 

[Aim for NaN]

So even if FMT were FDA approved, it would be hard to find donors in America.

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Yet, even you would realize that "hard to find" is not equivalent to "impossible."

When aiming to produce a product for general consumption, you're either fulfilling an existing demand or you're creating demand. "What do people want?" They want everything. When people want everything, that means they need to be hooked in order for them to even notice your product. These companies are subject to the same ignorant, incompetent and lazy audiences as we are, yet they get people to buy their products anyway.

People walk into the doctor's office and their "numbers" return "normal" and "unremarkable" all the time. Therefrom, the doctor claims their health is perfect. I'm sure plenty of these people went on to die of heart disease and other ticking time-bombs. Tests are for ruling stuff out, not for asserting health. Many doctors have yet to come to this realization.

It is not difficult to simply look at a person and tell whether they'd be a potential stool donor. From then on you would entertain deeper forms of investigation. The issue is that the longer we wait, the less likely there'll be. Even Japan, which is rated as one of the top countries in having a good microbiome, have been slowly implementing Western cultural practices. Even so, I would still argue that there will always be someone, somewhere, that has a fairly good understanding of health and nutrition as a result of their own experiments that does not entertain poor lifestyles, which would be suitable as a stool donor. Even if they happen to be on the same level as hippies.

However, this is not to say that it is impossible to bring someone with fair health into good health, that they might have a desirable microbiome. Technically speaking, just finding even one ideal donor would be sufficient to improve everyone else. In the end, if no one does anything, then "hard to find" would be no different than "impossible."

You could argue that South Park made it go viral, and that had very little impact. Few people have the motivation to make FMT go viral because they can't make money off of it. They'd also likely need a super-donor. Hoping that some random person will make FMT go viral and that will solve all of our problems seems like a fantasy.

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Considering your own efforts, it is strange that you would echo the claim that you can't make money off of FMTs. Even if the world we seek is nothing but a fantasy, I'm sure that wouldn't stop you from chasing after it anyway.

 

[SFBayFMT5]

When aiming to produce a product for general consumption, you're either fulfilling an existing demand or you're creating demand. "What do people want?" They want everything. When people want everything, that means they need to be hooked in order for them to even notice your product. These companies are subject to the same ignorant, incompetent and lazy audiences as we are, yet they get people to buy their products anyway.

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You don't specify who "these companies" are, but I'm guessing you mean just general companies that are successful doing business in the US.

I don't think you can compare FMT marketing to selling of something like computer games, AI, "life hack" gadgets, vacation rentals, or anything like that, not even (other) supplements. In trying to sell FMT, you are effectively selling other people's bodies as a commodity--not directly, but you're selling something derived from those bodies where the body it came from is the very reason it's useful at all. In the US in particular, there is something inherent about human bodies being available as a commodity that squicks people out and gives the product a bad reputation.

Even the companies selling colostrum or milk oligosaccharides from human donors are relying on the fact that they are essentially milk, which many if not most people regularly drink, even if from a cow, and people feed to their babies. I guarantee you that if stool tasted like milk, and it were common to feed it to babies, there would be a thriving stool market because people would demand it.

So it's not so much about making the marketing slick and sexy so that people notice and are "hooked", the issue is what will you market at all? You can't show the product itself, because what would you show, a beautifully sculpted turd? So then would you show pictures of gorgeous looking donors smiling and telling you how happy they are to provide the product? Well then the bodies are openly the product, and it comes across as if you're advertising an Onlyfans type site if you're not careful. Those companies do good business I'm sure, but do you want that kind of reputation if you're promoting the thing that will hopefully fix the health of the human race? And I'm sure the FDA would take even much less kindly to that than a site like Human Microbes that does its best to look matter-of-fact.

So there's really no mass marketing model for human-body-derived goods that isn't sleazy. That's part of the problem.

 

[Michael Harrop]

Considering your own efforts, it is strange that you would echo the claim that you can't make money off of FMTs

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I'm making $0 off FMT. I illegally made minimum wage off FMT for 2 years.

Even if the world we seek is nothing but a fantasy, I'm sure that wouldn't stop you from chasing after it anyway.

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More nonsense. There are real solutions; you're proposing fantastical notions instead.