DNA stool analysis before and after FMT? Outcomes 

Raptor

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I've been DNA stool testing my microbiome for close to three years every 3 months. I had been through 10 rounds of antibiotics over a few years and was left with severe cramping, hypersensitivity, histamine reactions, as well as other issues. I was left with diversity in the 5th percentile. I became very familiar with the DNA results and reading the reports.

Is there any evidence of what your biome looked like before and after an FMT? I could see what 1 round of antibiotics did my comprised biome from the DNA testing during real time. I had multiple DNA tests done before and after a round of metronidazole and could clearly see how it impacted my biome initially and over time. I would like to see similar evidence before and after FMT.
 
How about you re-test after doing a FMT, since you're familiar with your pre-FMT results?

As far as existing data, if you read almost any scientific paper about FMT they will show pre- and post-FMT microbiome data from the recipients, organized by phylum, genus, and sometimes species. They quite often will also show the microbiome profile of the donor(s).

In general, the recipients' microbiomes change in the direction of their donor, though not "all the way" (in other words, they don't acquire ALL species from the donor, and often not to the level of abundance of the donor, rather partway between the donor and their starting abundance). This the overall big picture, sometimes bacteria increase in the recipient that weren't found in the donor. And among the ones that DO shift toward the donor, it's often highly skewed in terms of which change how much, in other words the recipient doesn't move proportionally along a line connecting his/her starting profile to the donor's, but instead might move 90% of the way toward the donor along some dimensions and only 15% of the way along others. Also how durable the change is varies widely.
 
Basically I was curious if the 16s RNA test would show large change initially after FMT or would the new bacteria need to settle and propagate. For example, I have little to no Akkermansia and zero Oxalobacter in over 12 DNA tests over 3 years. The new bacteria would have to live and replicate. I am wondering how that data would look. Not just raw numbers but also percentage of biome.

Also, I'm in the 5th percentile in overall diversity. What would it look like a month after FMT, a year after?
 
That's a big waste of money. You're better off spending your money elsewhere. https://humanmicrobiome.info/testing/
That's probably true in terms of actionable information for the test taker personally. It's not like a test anyone takes right now will tell him or her whether FMT is promising or if so which donor to use. So basically if you take a test now, you're investing in the future of microbiome research--you can tell people what worked for you and what your microbiome looked like and others can try and draw conclusions from pooling your outcome with others.

Even in terms of truly understanding the gut, the current tests might not provide the answers. I suspect that what's most important isn't what species are living in the rectum, but what genes are being expressed in all the different compartments from mouth to colon. Even if this were the case, test results could contribute to knowledge, but likely in a correlative fashion, i.e. which species are in the stool may be a marker for what you really care about even if it isn't itself what you care about.


Basically I was curious if the 16s RNA test would show large change initially after FMT or would the new bacteria need to settle and propagate. For example, I have little to no Akkermansia and zero Oxalobacter in over 12 DNA tests over 3 years. The new bacteria would have to live and replicate. I am wondering how that data would look. Not just raw numbers but also percentage of biome.
If you did FMT via the lower route you'd of course detect the donor's bacteria immediately after. Even if done by the upper route you would likely see something, the question is what it means. In terms of Oxalobacter specifically, if your donor didn't have any either then there's no reason to expect it to appear post-FMT. Akkermansia is something that most healthy people have in decent amounts so that's a different story.

Also, I'm in the 5th percentile in overall diversity. What would it look like a month after FMT, a year after?
It depends on if your donor's bacteria "take". If they don't, then a week after FMT you could have your old balance back. Obviously if you do some kind of antibiotic pre-treatment then diversity should increase post-FMT since the niche is undersaturated, if you just go from a stable pre-FMT balance to adding some bacteria via FMT then it doesn't need to. Again I would look at published papers that trialed FMT for different indications to see what they saw.
 
While the only way to know how it will look like is if you perform the tests yourself, it is often observed that the microbiome will tend towards that of the donor. So, if you insist on entertaining speculation, then test the donors' stools.

Not sure about Oxalobacter, but Akkermansia is overly hyped. Sure, Akkermansia can synthesize glutamine, which is useful for repairing the gut, but there's a reason why its full name is Akkermansia Muciniphila. It eats mucin. This is fine if your body can replace mucin constantly, but dangerous if it can't. My gut is rich in Akkermansia. But my gut is in horrible condition.
 
Uploaded 9 test results in Claude. I am missing a bunch of good bacteria after way too many antibiotics. These were some of the ones that stood out to me:

Zero of these:
Bifidobacterium pseudocatenulatum
B. bifidum
Lactobacillus acidophilus
Lactobacillus plantarum
Oxalobacter formigenes
Phascolarctobacterium faecium

And zero of this organism: Methanobrevibacter smithii

More importantly to me is the lack of biome diversity (5th percentile) enables Proteobacteria (Phylum) Rhodospirillales (Order) to overgrow. It is 23% of overall bacteria and the pain and inflammation are unbearable. Testing could not identify the genus or species. This bacteria comes from the soil or underwater and survives on oxygen (photosynthesis). I believe a quality FMT will cure this overgrowth much like increasing diversity quells C. Diff.

I going to test after the FMT to see if antibiotic caused low diversity can be improved. My guess is it can by its efficacy in treating C. Diff.

Edit: Adding a question: Curious if I should consider antibiotics before the FMT to reduce Proteobacteria or should the FMT be effective enough by itself? Opinions?
 
Uploaded 9 test results in Claude. I am missing a bunch of good bacteria after way too many antibiotics. These were some of the ones that stood out to me:

Zero of these:
Bifidobacterium pseudocatenulatum
B. bifidum
Lactobacillus acidophilus
Lactobacillus plantarum
Oxalobacter formigenes
Phascolarctobacterium faecium

And zero of this organism: Methanobrevibacter smithii

Lactobacillus acidophilus is added intentionally to certain dairy products, it's not significantly present in the gut unless you're eating a lot of it. While there are other Lactobacillus species that are common (to be found at all) in the gut like L. gasseri, L. reuteri, and L. salivarius, their abundance is very low. A lot of them seem to come from food--breast milk in infants and fermented foods later in life. While they may not perfectly match dietary intake, they're generally a better indicator of your diet than the actual state of your gut, and it's telling that in other primates, none of these are observed at all in the wild, only when they're in captivity (and thus eating food that humans give them): https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-16438-8

Bifidobacteria, in contrast, ARE an integral part of the gut microbiome, particularly in infancy. Their abundance goes down with age but they generally don't disappear entirely. However, they're easy to supplement.

Oxalobacter is only found in some people. It's only if you're prone to oxalate kidney stones that it likely matters whether you have it or not, as really the only metabolic thing it can do is turn oxalate into formate. I don't have Oxalobacter and I DO have kidney stones, however recent testing showed that they're predominantly uric acid (and the bit of oxalate they contain is probably precipitated out BY the uric acid), thus even there the connection is tenuous. Uric acid, BTW, is degraded by a completely different set of gut bacteria that was the focus of a few high profile papers some years ago.

More importantly to me is the lack of biome diversity (5th percentile) enables Proteobacteria (Phylum) Rhodospirillales (Order) to overgrow. It is 23% of overall bacteria and the pain and inflammation are unbearable. Testing could not identify the genus or species. This bacteria comes from the soil or underwater and survives on oxygen (photosynthesis). I believe a quality FMT will cure this overgrowth much like increasing diversity quells C. Diff.

I going to test after the FMT to see if antibiotic caused low diversity can be improved. My guess is it can by its efficacy in treating C. Diff.

Edit: Adding a question: Curious if I should consider antibiotics before the FMT to reduce Proteobacteria or should the FMT be effective enough by itself? Opinions?

I believe the idea that Proteobacteria as a whole are inherently a problem is GREATLY exaggerated. There are certainly some you don't want too much of, like Klebsiella, and some that are outright pathogenic in any significant amounts (virulence factor-producing strains of H. pylori), but it doesn't seem like you have those, and something like Klebsiella rarely reaches anywhere near 20% even when it's present.

Rhodospirillales are in fact so under-represented in the gut (with the one exception of Acetobacter species in insect guts) that having them at 23% seems to suggest a contaminated sample rather than an actual overgrowth. Having water- and/or soil bacteria reach over 20% of total abundance is what I would expect if you were to sequence a "blank" that doesn't actually have any stool in it.
 
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