Suppose that the gut/brain axis is as important (in psychiatry) as the peer-reviewed literature seems to indicate. Why then isn't fecal transplantation an extremely famous and celebrated psychiatric treatment?

GutBrainAxis

Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2023
Messages
42
If you read the peer-reviewed literature, you can see how important the gut/brain axis is in psychiatry. And as I understand it, fecal transplantation is a "nuclear option" for the gut/brain axis where you actually revamp the composition of the gut biota. The fecal-transplantation thing seems like such a powerful tool that literally changes your gut biota just like you're taking a CD-ROM from one human and inserting it into another human (not sure if that analogy makes sense).

But if the treatment is so powerful and the gut/brain axis is so important, why aren't there huge headlines (about this treatment) in major newspapers around the world? Why isn't this treatment taking the psychiatric and medical worlds by storm? This treatment (given its power and the importance of the gut/brain axis) should be one of the most famous and celebrated breakthroughs in the history of medicine.

I guess that that answer to the problem might be either (1) that the gut/brain axis is less impactful than the peer-reviewed literature might suggest or (2) that the treatment simply doesn't revamp the gut biota in the way that it's supposed to. Of course, my whole premise here might be flawed in one or another way; I'm not yet well-informed about all of these matters.
 
One other thing, if that's OK.

I wonder to what extent scientists are using the results of fecal transplantation as a way to discern the true impact of the gut/brain axis. So if you had unlimited resources and you did some massive hyper-thorough randomized trial with like 100,000 people or something....the results of that trial would give you a sense of just how much the gut/brain axis actually does underlie people's psychiatric issues. If a lot of these patients get better as a result of the treatment, you know that the gut/brain axis plays a big role in causing psychiatric disease. But if few people have a major response, you might then conclude that the importance of the gut/brain axis has been exaggerated.

Incidentally, I find it really fascinating to read about how the gut/brain axis impacts the brain through its effect on the blood/brain barrier. That's fascinating. The integrity of the blood/brain barrier is being connected to psychiatric disease in various ways.
 
I think the primary issue is stool donor quality. This thread gives a summary and links out to more info: https://forum.humanmicrobiome.info/threads/donor-quality-and-stool-type-hypothesis-for-fmt-fecal-microbiota-trans.142/

Basically, C. diff has been very easy to treat, and this has possibly contributed to the phenomenon where stool donors are merely screened for a few well-known pathogens and infectious diseases. With the only focus being on acute safety, with little concern given to efficacy/donor quality.

In the link above you can see that I tried for years to push for higher donor quality before eventually giving up and saying I'll do this myself.

Early on, I wondered what traits (happiness, intelligence, creativity, etc.) might be transferred via FMT. Since as you mentioned, the literature provides quite a bit of evidence for this. At this point, I wish FMT was as simple as "do FMT from someone healthy & intelligent and their traits will be transferred to you", but I think that if there is a way to transfer traits via the gut microbiome, it will probably require methods more sophisticated than FMT.

That being said, I think FMT from a super-donor can likely treat and prevent most brain disorders. And transferring detrimental traits (disorders) is much easier than beneficial ones. Which is another reason why donor quality is so important.

I wonder to what extent scientists are using the results of fecal transplantation as a way to discern the true impact of the gut/brain axis
FMT is definitely the primary tool used in microbiome research to determine causation. I think a main reason that it doesn't translate well is that the groups of mice they're using are much more homogenous than humans. Mice eat each other's poop by default. So you can pick random mice to use as donors and they're all going to be pretty similar. However, that's definitely not the case with humans.
 
Thanks so much for the excellent response; I appreciate it.

Once it's ensured that donors are truly free of issues, do the statistics then show a profound impact? This brings us back to the question that I was asking. If it works, why isn't it taking the psychiatric and medical worlds by storm?

And if it doesn't work, I wonder why. Is it some unknown limitation of the treatment? Or is it because the gut/brain axis isn't as important as we thought?
 
Once it's ensured that donors are truly free of issues, do the statistics then show a profound impact?
This hasn't been tested yet. I've screened nearly a million donor applicants via humanmicrobes.org and still haven't found someone who meets the "ideal criteria" I'm looking for. But there is still plenty of evidence in the literature https://humanmicrobiome.info/brain/ and from case reports of FMT having profound benefits.

This brings us back to the question that I was asking. If it works, why isn't it taking the psychiatric and medical worlds by storm?
The research is still very preliminary. There are lots of unknowns about donor quality and safety. There haven't been large clinical trials with good enough results to warrant FMT being an approved & widely available therapy. The research system moves extremely slowly, especially for things like FMT that can't be patented by large pharma companies.

And if it doesn't work, I wonder why. Is it some unknown limitation of the treatment? Or is it because the gut/brain axis isn't as important as we thought?
Likely donor quality.
 
1: I'm curious...would you ideally want to use a donor who's some kind of famous athlete or superstar athlete? Or would material from such a person be no better than getting material from someone who's like a completely unknown professional athlete who doesn't play in any famous sports league or anything?

2: Once you have the material, will you be able to somehow "replicate" it? How does that work? Do you analyze in extreme detail the mixture of gut-biota strains? And then you have a "recipe" and you could literally mass-produce the "recipe"?

3: Would the mass-produced material be just as valuable for fecal transplantation as the original actual material? If not, why wouldn't it be?

4: Isn't it extremely useful to get material from people in Papua New Guinea? There are still small numbers of people who are isolated (I think?) and who live in the same way that hunter-gatherers did. They should have all the strains that have been with us throughout our history, correct?

5: And they also should be able to provide an "ideal" recipe in the sense that they represent a natural human existence (the one that matches our evolution and doesn't go against it)?

6: If I get my gut-biota composition analyzed, there's enough science to guide me as I seek to improve my composition, correct? A doctor might regard an effort to improve gut-biota composition as something that's experimental and unproven and "not medically validated". I don't know if any medical system anywhere in the world has implemented gut-biota stuff. Maybe millionaires go to private labs that do gut-biota stuff for a large fee.
 
Two final quick things.

1: Why think that there's one "ideal" composition? And furthermore, if everyone gets seeded with the ideal "recipe", will there be some downside or vulnerability if there's no diversity in human gut-biota composition? Not sure what the value of diversity is.

2: If you do get this ideal "recipe" and good results don't materialize, what will that mean? Will it mean that something about the treatment (and "recipe") was wrong? Or will it mean that the gut/brain axis (and the gut/everything axis) has been overestimated in the scientific literature in terms of its power and importance?
 
Sorry to bring up something random. But I happen to have bipolar disorder and I had this weird situation where my gut like stopped moving. My gut was like ultra-constipated. I took some lithium just now and my gut like roared to life and I felt better within seconds. Within roughly 30 seconds. These ultra-fast reactions are super weird to me; I want to get to the bottom of how I'm able to respond to substances so rapidly...it's not just an intellectual curiosity, since knowing the answer might help me treatment-wise. But the ultra-rapid reactions make me think about gut biota and about the gut/brain axis.

I really wonder if lithium has any major interactions with gut biota...or whether lithium's impact on my gut is unrelated to the gut biota and is instead some kind of interaction with the actual cells (???) of the gut wall or some such thing? It would blow my mind if lithium's actual mechanism of action (!!!) were somehow related to gut biota. That would blow my darn mind. See here:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/brb3.3037

Multiple studies included in this review point toward a possible link between BD and the gut microbiota. Probiotic supplements and other gut-balancing therapies could serve as effective adjunctive methods for the treatment of BD. Notable limitations of the studies included for analysis were small sample sizes and majority observational study designs. Furthermore, the microbiota aberrations found in patients with BD were not consistent across multiple studies. Despite these limitations, our findings demonstrate the need for further research regarding the relationship between aberrant gut microbiota profiles and BD, as well as the effectiveness of gut balancing methods as adjunctive treatments.

...

The neurobiological mechanisms that drive BD symptoms are poorly understood, which could be a possible contributor for increasing rates of BD symptom relapse (Aizawa et al., 2019; Geddes & Miklowitz, 2013; Perlis et al., 2006). A possible environmental factor that has yet to be adequately studied in reference to BD is the contribution of intestinal microbiota aberrations. An emerging concept of a microbiota–gut–brain axis is being utilized to highlight the significant effect gut microbiota composition has on bidirectional gut–brain communication pathways (Cryan & Dinan, 2012; Painold et al., 2019). Research is revealing that the gut microbiota is key for maintaining homeostasis, and alterations in its composition can lead to a number of disease states including those of the central nervous system (CNS) (Cryan & Dinan, 2012). In fact, the relationship between gut microbiota dysbiosis and host illness has long been linked to chronic conditions such as metabolic syndrome, irritable bowel syndrome, inflammatory bowel disease, and anorexia nervosa. (Cryan & Dinan, 2012; Mayer, 2011; Painold et al., 2019). Gut microbiota alterations have also been linked to other psychiatric disorders including BD (Coello et al., 2019; Hu et al., 2019; Painold et al., 2019). Recurring effective episodes in BD are associated with a progressive decline in cognitive and executive function, and there is growing evidence that supports a relationship between cognition and microbiota via the gut–brain axis (Cryan & Dinan, 2012; Forsythe et al., 2010; Misiak et al., 2020). Thus, the link between BD and the gut microbiome may be a useful treatment alternative, as mounting research has found significant intestinal microbiota alterations in patients with mood disorders (Aizawa et al., 2019; Coello et al., 2019; Forsythe et al., 2010; Hu et al., 2019; Painold et al., 2019).
 
I'm curious...would you ideally want to use a donor who's some kind of famous athlete or superstar athlete?
It's all guesswork right now. I laid out my rationale and evidence here: https://www.humanmicrobes.org/blog/the-evidence-and-rationale-supporting-our-donor-criteria

Once you have the material, will you be able to somehow "replicate" it? How does that work?
No, current knowledge and technical capabilities are too limited. https://humanmicrobiome.info/testing/

4: Isn't it extremely useful to get material from people in Papua New Guinea?
Covered here https://www.humanmicrobes.org/blog/half-a-million-stool-donor-applicants. They would have pathogens from their environment. The logistics are also not doable for widespread use.

6: If I get my gut-biota composition analyzed, there's enough science to guide me as I seek to improve my composition, correct? A doctor might regard an effort to improve gut-biota composition as something that's experimental and unproven and "not medically validated". I don't know if any medical system anywhere in the world has implemented gut-biota stuff. Maybe millionaires go to private labs that do gut-biota stuff for a large fee.
No, there's not enough science on that, which is why FMT is the primary tool, yet FMT is a big grey/unknown area still as well. See https://humanmicrobiome.info/testing/

1: Why think that there's one "ideal" composition?
See this link I shared earlier https://forum.humanmicrobiome.info/threads/donor-quality-and-stool-type-hypothesis-for-fmt-fecal-microbiota-trans.142/

And furthermore, if everyone gets seeded with the ideal "recipe", will there be some downside or vulnerability if there's no diversity in human gut-biota composition? Not sure what the value of diversity is.
If 99% of people are missing microbes, and you add more microbes, no I don't think there's a downside. The "diversity"/heterogeneity is dysbiotic. Restoring eubiosis is only beneficial.

2: If you do get this ideal "recipe" and good results don't materialize, what will that mean?
Then we've completed Step 1 here https://maximiliankohler.blogspot.com/2019/12/fmt-roadmap-proposal.html and we can move on to the next steps.

If there is still no "poop panacea" after all steps, then we'll need more sophisticated methods of targeting the gut microbiome.

Or will it mean that the gut/brain axis (and the gut/everything axis) has been overestimated in the scientific literature in terms of its power and importance?
I don't think this is likely, but it's always a possibility.
 
Thanks! Very final question now (I promise). If you can't "replicate" the "super poop" that you get from the ideal donor, then of what use is the "super poop"? I don't get it. Without replication, the "super poop" won't be able to help very many people, correct?
 
I really wonder if lithium has any major interactions with gut biota...or whether lithium's impact on my gut is unrelated to the gut biota and is instead some kind of interaction with the actual cells (???) of the gut wall or some such thing? It would blow my mind if lithium's actual mechanism of action (!!!) were somehow related to gut biota. That would blow my darn mind.
There's a lot of recent research showing that the impacts of drugs, supplements, etc., may be in large part due to the changes they make to the gut microbiome. There are some papers here on it: https://humanmicrobiome.info/intro/#drugs

If you can't "replicate" the "super poop" that you get from the ideal donor, then of what use is the "super poop"? I don't get it. Without replication, the "super poop" won't be able to help very many people, correct?
Correct. My primary goal is to cure myself, so it doesn't matter in that case. However, trying to upgrade a "7/10" quality donor by having them do FMT from a "10/10" donor is likely something we'll try in the future, but we have yet to find any 9's or 10's. It is briefly mentioned at the end of this blog https://www.humanmicrobes.org/blog/half-a-million-stool-donor-applicants.
 
OK, so is it likely (would you say?) that using "super poop" to upgrade other donors will lead to a situation where there is (ultimately) enough "super poop" for everyone on the planet?
 
Incidentally, if you don't mind my asking, how did you arrive at the view that gut-biota stuff was the key to fixing your own health?
 
is it likely (would you say?) that using "super poop" to upgrade other donors will lead to a situation where there is (ultimately) enough "super poop" for everyone on the planet?
I don't know.

how did you arrive at the view that gut-biota stuff was the key to fixing your own health?
Personal experimentation and the scientific literature.
 
OK, just one final thing (Sorry: I may have said "final thing" before.)

If rich people go to some private lab (I assume there are private labs that will do things for rich people) then what can that lab actually do (for the rich person) gut-biota wise? We have a bunch of literature. And we have the fecal-transplantation thing. Could a private lab really do something useful for the the rich person health-wise? How useful?

I mean, if the field of gut-biota stuff isn't ready to be implemented in medicine for the general population, you might think that the science simply isn't there and therefore that a rich person would not be able to be helped in a very useful way.

And lastly, what would be necessarily to actually manufacture "super poop"? Suppose you scanned some 10/10 "super poop"; you now know its constituents. What's holding us back from being able to create that 10/10 "super poop" now? We know the "recipe"; can't we mass-produce it now? I suppose you can't "grow" it; feces doesn't "grow". But maybe one or other technological breakthrough might allow for taking a "recipe" and then manufacturing a large-scale supply.
 
Last edited:
Any thoughts on the below, by the way? I urge you to read the paper all the way through. It's so interesting. And it has tons of fantastic sources too.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8187765/

In this opinion article we would like to propose alternate views on selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) in the treatment of psychiatric disorders, relating them to the gut-brain axis and the gut microbiome. First, we give a brief overview on serotonin and its role in the gut. We then expand on the plausible gut microbial involvement in the mechanisms of SSRI-treatment effect, treatment response, side effects, and tachyphylaxis (i.e., a sudden loss of therapeutic response upon an initiated or a repeated drug use). A few pre-clinical studies that are cited have provided some preliminary evidence, supporting the involvement of the gut microbiome with psychopharmacological side effects (14), and even in the mechanism of action (15). A narrative review have proposed similar arguments as we do, however in a broader perspective, focusing on all psychopharmacological compounds (16). A similar argument has been proposed for other psychopharmacological compounds as well, but due to the fact that such a high degree of the serotonin synthesis takes place in the gut (17), and to the widespread usage of SSRIs (18), we wanted to focus on this specific class of drugs as we believe that this would be of particular interest. This article is not suggestive of being an exhaustive review, but rather an attempt to propose an integrative hypothesis on this topic and give “food for thought.”
 
If rich people go to some private lab (I assume there are private labs that will do things for rich people) then what can that lab actually do (for the rich person) gut-biota wise?
Very little.

I mean, if the field of gut-biota stuff isn't ready to be implemented in medicine for the general population, you might think that the science simply isn't there and therefore that a rich person would not be able to be helped in a very useful way.
Correct.

And lastly, what would be necessarily to actually manufacture "super poop"? Suppose you scanned some 10/10 "super poop"; you now know its constituents. What's holding us back from being able to create that 10/10 "super poop" now? We know the "recipe"; can't we mass-produce it now?
No, I don't think it's possible yet. See this link I shared earlier https://humanmicrobiome.info/testing. There are too many knowledge and technological limitations currently.
 
1: Is there any way to know how "ideal" the average person's gut-biota situation was back when we were hunter-gatherers? Is the expectation that what is "ideal" for the human body and brain was common or even dominant in the past?

2: If you look here ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8234057/figure/nutrients-13-02099-f001/ ) there's a list of 4 precursors. Suppose someone's gut-biota situation was massively disrupted. Is it possible that taking one or more of those 4 precursors would be helpful? In order words, is it possible that someone whose gut-biota situation has been massively disrupted faces a "bottleneck" when it comes to one or more of those 4 precursors?

3: If the gut is influencing the brain through certain precursors and neurotransmitters, can't we just "cut out the middleman" and tinker directly with those precursors and neurotransmitters?

I also just wonder what you think about this ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8234057/ ) paper in general. It seems like a goldmine of amazing information.
 
1: Is there any way to know how "ideal" the average person's gut-biota situation was back when we were hunter-gatherers? Is the expectation that what is "ideal" for the human body and brain was common or even dominant in the past?
That's being researched. I don't think "ideal" was common or even dominant in the past. For example, we can look at the current Hadza example, and we can look at other remote people. They all have pathogens from their environment, and many of them are unhealthy.

Is it possible that taking one or more of those 4 precursors would be helpful?
Anything is possible. Those could also be harmful for some people. Everyone's gut is different.

#3 would be better for a neuroscientist to answer. But "direct targeting with bypassing the crux of the issue (gut microbiome)" is largely what has been the longstanding ethos (prescription drugs).
 
Sorry to ask a basic question, but is there anywhere where you have like your top 10 favorite papers demonstrating the power of gut biota regarding human health? Like, if I want to really make the case (regarding gut biota and human health) then I would love to see the papers that you've selected as being the most "Wow!" papers that you've seen in this domain.
 
What are the basic things that are known about what microbiota one wants to have in their gut? For example, what proportion of butyrate-producing biota should one have...is anything known about that? It seems like butyrate is very important:

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2022.1103836/full

The present review critically examined all aspects of butyrate-producing gut microbial communities and their possible impact on host health to better understand their therapeutic significance. We considered the significance of butyrate producers and butyrate in the gut to understand their importance as microbial therapeutics. Although butyrate is an important metabolite, butyrate producers are much more important as they actively control the gut microbiome via various anti-microbial and anti-inflammatory molecules, and by synthesizing vitamin B. Butyrate-producing microbial communities inhibit cancer growth by secreting anti-carcinogenic substances and regulate tumorigenesis via butyrate. Butyrate producers are promising next-generation probiotics, and their counts in the gut can be regulated by dietary interventions to benefit the host. Moreover, butyrate producers can also be genetically manipulated to enhance butyrate synthesis, making them suitable microbial therapeutic agents. We also see the possibility of introducing new butyrate communities to the gut, which are alien to the human gut, to study their impact and to analyze any possible health effects. However, detailed studies are required to cease all safety concerns regarding the introduction of animal or soil origin butyrate producers in the human gut.
 
I still keep coming back to the point that if you have some "super poop" then by analyzing it very closing you can obtain the knowledge of which biota are present and in what proportion. Once you have that knowledge, you can ultimately strive to duplicate that same situation in everyone's gut even once you no longer have any "super poop" samples remaining, correct?

Why can't the below method (of using diet) get people at least close to an ideal gut-microbiota situation?

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13668-018-0248-8

In elegant work, diet switching experiments have demonstrated rapid changes in microbial metabolic activity and diversity related to the protein, lipid and NDC (dietary fibre) content of the diet [20••, 21]. Thus, the microbiome has become an attractive target because of the ease of its modulation by diet, with the aim of altering host response.
 
For example, what proportion of butyrate-producing biota should one have...is anything known about that? It seems like butyrate is very important:

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2022.1103836/full
That's a nice review, and I completely agree that restoring butyrate producers is vastly preferable to supplementing butyrate. I don't think that things like exact percentages are well-established.

I still keep coming back to the point that if you have some "super poop" then by analyzing it very closing you can obtain the knowledge of which biota are present and in what proportion. Once you have that knowledge, you can ultimately strive to duplicate that same situation in everyone's gut even once you no longer have any "super poop" samples remaining, correct?
There are many research groups studying the Hadza, yet they're not able to replicate the benefits of their gut microbiomes. Current knowledge and capabilities are too limited https://humanmicrobiome.info/testing.

Why can't the below method (of using diet) get people at least close to an ideal gut-microbiota situation?
Diet can't add missing microbes. https://humanmicrobiome.info/diet/
 
1: Why would you say that having producers (in your gut) produce X is so much better than supplementing X?

2; I just took some magnesium; I was feeling extremely tired and awful but now I feel better. I wonder how many people are Mg-deficient. Take a look at this:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Estefani-Yaquelin-Hernandez-Cruz-2/publication/367794337_Magnesium_Mg2_Deficiency_Not_Well-Recognized_Non-Infectious_Pandemic_Origin_and_Consequence_of_Chronic_Inflammatory_and_Oxidative_Stress-Associated_Diseases/links/63dd16cac465a873a284f13d/Magnesium-Mg2-Deficiency-Not-Well-Recognized-Non-Infectious-Pandemic-Origin-and-Consequence-of-Chronic-Inflammatory-and-Oxidative-Stress-Associated-Diseases.pdf

Magnesium (Mg2+) is an essential mineral nutrient, necessary for many biochemical reactions in the human body, including energy metabolism, protein and DNA synthesis, maintenance of the electrical potential of nervous and cardiac tissues, control of blood glucose, and regulation of blood pressure. However, currently, the world population suffers from a severe problem because the consumption of Mg2+ in the diet is deficient and generalized in the populations. Mg2+ deficiency causes oxidative stress (OS) due to the increase in reactive oxygen species (ROS) that originate from mitochondrial dysfunction, activation of the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system (RAAS), and abnormal regulation of calcium homeostasis. In addition, Mg2+ deficiency also causes inflammation by increasing the production of proinflammatory molecules such as interleukin (IL)-1, IL-6, and tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-α), which in turn can exacerbate the production of ROS. The combination of inflammation and OS induced by Mg2+ deficiency increases the risk of developing chronic diseases. This review describes Mg2+ deficiency, its complications, and its relationship with OS and chronic inflammatory diseases. In addition, the importance of increasing the intake of Mg2+ throughout the world is highlighted.

3: The weird thing is that I react to things faster than seems logical. Like I felt better (after taking that Mg) within like 30 seconds or less it seemed. One day I hope I can take some substances (I want the experiment to be double-blind!) and get scientists to record what I report. If I report effects that align with what I took (remember, it will be double-blind) then they'll have to conclude that the effect is real even though it's very rapid. And I wonder whether the substance even has time to get to my brain or whether the substance somehow affects my brain without leaving my GI system. Not sure if my gut biota mediate these very rapid effects or not.

4: If you click "Download now" at this ( https://annas-archive.org/slow_download/922a2ebe72e1b552d2dc30dee4bc1511/0/2 ) link then I wonder what you make of that paper. I think you'll find it utterly fascinating. See here (not sure if you can access the full paper at the link below...I can't unfortunately):

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306987717312306
The microbiome-gut-brain axis paradigm explains that alterations in the central nervous system and behavior may be secondary to functional changes in the gut in general and more specifically the enteric nervous system. An unfavorable development of the intestinal microbial ecosystem, leading to e.g. a diminished microbial diversity, may play a central role. This paper outlines, and describes the theoretical basis of, a novel integrative model explaining the etiology and pathogenesis of ADHD in a microbiota-gut-brain context, taking into account the complexity of the bi-directional signaling between the gut and the brain.

Here's an excerpt from the first link that I provided (not the "sciencedirect" one):
Norepinephrine, tryptophan, serotonin, dopamine and GABA are all metabolized or formed by enzymes that depend on the coenzyme pyridoxal phosphate (PLP), which is the active form of vitamin B6. In a study on tryptophan metabolism through the kynurenine pathway, dramatically impaired activity of PLP-dependent enzymes was found in children with ADHD (6-11 years old) versus healthy controls, and it was suggested that a disturbance of vitamin B6 metabolism is the core biochemical background of ADHD symptoms (59). In humans, a significant amount of vitamin B6 is produced by the normal microbiota of the large intestine, in a form that is available for absorption (60), although the relative contribution to systemic versus local nutritional needs requires further research (61). Can a lack of for example vitamin B6 producing gut bacteria in ADHD be an explanatory factor of other alterations seen?
 
Last edited:
1. The authors explained it. The benefits of a microbe are not simply to produce one compound.
2. I also get fatigued when taking magnesium. It seems to be associated with its stool-softening effects.
3. There are a variety of signaling mechanisms throughout the body.
 
What do you think about the info in this ( https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/14/8/1567 ), including Table 1? Seems like useful info.

Regarding the gut/brain axis (and the gut/body axis generally, I guess?), what is the best overall mega-review that just talks about all the different strains of bacteria and has a big table and everything? And just summarizes the state of current knowledge?
 
1: I hope to see some specialists regarding my gut. But I don't know what kind of tests they'll be able to do. If you see a gut specialist within the medical system then it's not like they're going to test your gut-biota composition, are they?

2: And I have no idea what they'll prescribe for (e.g.) gut dysbiosis; not sure how that's treated. You can do probiotics and prebiotics but how often will they test your gut-biota composition in order to see how it responds to treatment?

3: What do you think about kefir? And about Pepto Bismol?

4: I had a weird incident recently where I took way too much of an iron supplement. Do you know if an incident like that could actually cause like permanent dysbiosis (or some other permanent gut issue)? Not sure how much damage you can do with a one-time incident. It wasn't 100% a one-time incident in the sense that I did ingest the iron supplement more than once. But it was only once that I took way too much. See below.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8159756/

Previous research studying the impact of iron on the gut microbiome has produced conflicting conclusions. Within bacteria iron can play a crucial role in growth and proliferation, for example iron can be required for the proper functioning of some bacterial proteins and enzymes. Additionally iron can modulate expression of some virulence factors.162,163,164 Therefore, iron has been shown to be an important element required for the growth of some but not all gut bacteria including Bacteroides spp.165,166 and Enterobacteriaceae,167 whilst Lactobacilli species do not require iron for growth.7,8 Interestingly, Lactobacillus plantarum 299v, and a probiotic (containing Bifidobacterium bifidum W23, B. lactis W51, B. lactis W52, Lactobacillus acidophilus W37, L. brevis W63, L. casei W56, L. salivarius W24, Lactococcus lactis W19, and L. lactis W58) have been shown to increase host iron absorption.168,169 Various proteins and enzymes involved in bacterial replication and growth require iron as a cofactor to function. Iron is a cofactor involved in the synthesis of DNA (i.e., ribonucleotide diphosphate reductase),170,171,172,173 electron transfer and generation of ATP (i.e., cytochromes), and the neutralization of harmful oxidative species (i.e., superoxide dismutase). Iron deficiency can inhibit these bacterial cell processes, which can impair bacterial growth. Microbes that require iron for growth and survival have evolved processes to prevent nutrient deficient states. During iron deficiency, bacterial iron acquisition gene programs are de-repressed by the ferric uptake regulator family (FUR) proteins. FUR proteins act as an iron-dependent repressor that controls numerous iron-regulated genes by binding free ferrous (2+) iron to prevent transcription when bacteria are exposed to sufficient iron. During iron deficiency, FUR proteins de-repress gene programs that enhance iron acquisition from their hosts to promote growth.164 Mechanisms to acquire iron include: (i) siderophores formation, (ii) cell surface ferric reductases to reduce free ferric (3+) iron to ferrous (2+) iron for bacterial utilization and (iii) production of cytotoxins and haemolysins to release iron stores from host cells.174,175,176

...

Under normal conditions pathogenic bacteria must overcome resistance from commensal microbial communities in order to colonize. Commensal microorganisms activate immune responses which can lead to the elimination of pathogenic bacterial species. However, the level of immune activation is important, as instead of leading to elimination of pathogenic bacteria, alternatively intestinal inflammation can promote the colonization of pathogens.179 One of the hallmarks of intestinal inflammation-induced dysbiosis (Fig. 1) is that of increased abunance of enterobacteria species. Due to the differing microbial profile in the inflammed gut there is also an association with an altered siderophore profile. As siderophores are responsible for metal ion abundance, this altered profile can further influence the type of bacteria which survive and grow.180 As such, because iron is an essential element for most bacteria to thrive, one key role of the intestinal immune response is to limit the availability of iron to pathogenic bacterial species.181

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click on image to zoom&p=PMC3&id=8159756_jla-10-160-g001.jpg

A previous study has shown that dietary iron inhibited growth of the enteric pathogen Citrobacter and drove selection of asymptomatic Citrobacter strains; these responses were associated with insulin resistance and increased glucose levels that suppressed pathogen virulence.140 In addition to promoting insulin resistance dietary iron also increased intestinal glucose levels, a key gut environmental change that suppressed pathogen virulence, and drove selection of asymptomatic Citrobacter strains.140 However, in contrast, other studies have shown that decrease in iron availability is beneficial via reducing growth of potentially pathogenic gut bacteria.182,183 Dietary iron supplementation has adverse effects such as inducing higher levels of pathogenic gut bacteria and the occurance of intestinal injury.111,113,182,184,185 Addionally a study investigating iron supplementation in African children found that there was an increase in the number of enterobacteria and a decrease in lactobacilli which correlated with gut inflammation.186

...

The principal conclusions arising from this review article are summarized in the accompanying Figs. 2 and and3.3. Specifically, the illustration in Fig. 2 highlights the main concept of iron-mediated modification of the gut microbiome being a potentially important determinant of metabolic consequences in the host. Fig. 3 depicts the various ways in which iron overload or deficiency can occur and subsequently re-shape the gut microbiome and alter barrier function. The impact of these changes on the host is dictated via cross talk mediated by gut-derived factors as shown in the figure. Ultimately, the clinical manifestation of this is the syndrome of dysmetabolic iron overload.

https://academic.oup.com/ibdjournal/article/23/5/753/4561079

Iron is an important nutrient for both the host and colonizing bacteria. Oral iron supplementation may impact the composition of the microbiota and can be particularly damaging to patients suffering from inflammatory bowel disease (IBD). However, patients with IBD may require iron supplementation to treat their anemia.
 
Here's more stuff on iron:

https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/22/7/3646

The multi-factorial mechanisms by which IBD-associated dysbiosis develops are not fully understood, and it is unclear whether this dysbiosis should be considered a cause or consequence of IBD. Luminal iron likely to contributes to the dysbiosis associated with IBD [44,45,46]. In a recent preliminary study, our group has shown that when luminal iron increased a dysbiosis occurs especially in IBD patients who have IDA (iron deficiency anemia) as well as in active IBD [47]. Proteobacteria was obviously an iron-responsive microbiota as presence of iron in the gut promotes their growth and apparently contribute to the excess of this phylum during relapse. However, in the same study, Bacteroidetes seemed to be independent of luminal iron, unlike Firmicutes. Though, a further investigation required clarification of the exact effect of lack as well as excess of iron upon the colonic microbiome [47].

...

Lowering iron content to 100 ppm in rodent diet significantly exacerbated acute colitis leading to an increase in fecal iron, whereas, increasing iron levels to 400 ppm resulted in significant alteration in gut microbiota. Consequently, this explains the important role that luminal iron plays in pathogenesis of inflammation in the gut. Additionally, the alteration in dietary iron over a longer period can significantly exacerbate susceptibility to DSS-induced intestinal inflammation, suggesting that the tenure of iron supplementation may also be crucial in aggravating colitis. Further studies will be necessary to investigate the relevance of our findings in humans.

https://bmcmicrobiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12866-021-02320-0

Oral iron supplementation after antibiotic therapy in mice may lead to deleterious changes in the recovery of the gut microbiota. Our results have implications on the use of oral iron supplementation after antibiotic exposure and justify further studies on alternative treatments for anemia in these settings.

https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/14/17/3478

Iron is an indispensable nutrient for life. A lack of it leads to iron deficiency anaemia (IDA), which currently affects about 1.2 billion people worldwide. The primary means of IDA treatment is oral or parenteral iron supplementation. This can be burdened with numerous side effects such as oxidative stress, systemic and local-intestinal inflammation, dysbiosis, carcinogenic processes and gastrointestinal adverse events. Therefore, this review aimed to provide insight into the physiological mechanisms of iron management and investigate the state of knowledge of the relationship between iron supplementation, inflammatory status and changes in gut microbiota milieu in diseases typically complicated with IDA and considered as having an inflammatory background such as in inflammatory bowel disease, colorectal cancer or obesity. Understanding the precise mechanisms critical to iron metabolism and the awareness of serious adverse effects associated with iron supplementation may lead to the provision of better IDA treatment. Well-planned research, specific to each patient category and disease, is needed to find measures and methods to optimise iron treatment and reduce adverse effects.

https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/12/7/1993

Iron deficiency in the human body is a global issue with an impact on more than two billion individuals worldwide. The most important functions ensured by adequate amounts of iron in the body are related to transport and storage of oxygen, electron transfer, mediation of oxidation-reduction reactions, synthesis of hormones, the replication of DNA, cell cycle restoration and control, fixation of nitrogen, and antioxidant effects. In the case of iron deficiency, even marginal insufficiencies may impair the proper functionality of the human body. On the other hand, an excess in iron concentration has a major impact on the gut microbiota composition. There are several non-genetic causes that lead to iron deficiencies, and thus, several approaches in their treatment. The most common methods are related to food fortifications and supplements. In this review, following a summary of iron metabolism and its health implications, we analyzed the scientific literature for the influence of iron fortification and supplementation on the gut microbiome and the effect of probiotics, prebiotics, and/or synbiotics in iron absorption and availability for the organism.
 
1: Also, I don't get how it can be necessary to find "superstar" fecal material in order to get major results with fecal transplantation. I understand why there might be interest in finding the "best of the best" material, especially if it's possible to study and replicate it. But finding like 7/10 or 8/10 material should still yield great results by definition, since you're taking someone who's got terrible gut-biota composition and bringing them way up to an above-average level (even if not a "superstar" level), right?

2: If you look at a superstar athlete like this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Wembanyama) famous basketball player, is that the type of athlete you're looking for? I'm asking because this player is really gifted and coordinated and agile and everything, but it's not like his physique is such that he seems to go extremely hard in the gym. I mean, I could be wrong, and I guess he is trying to gain muscle as rapidly as possible in order to be more formidable when battling for position on the floor. But still you do see with a lot of NBA players that they're very lean. Not sure if leanness is what matters for your purposes, though; even a lean athlete (who's nevertheless a superstar athlete and everything despite being lean) is still potentially pushing themselves very hard in the gym. So not sure what your criteria are.

3: If I got a fecal transplant then would I get to choose the donor? How is the donor normally selected when someone gets a transplant? No idea how it works.
 
Sorry for all the posts; one final quick thing.

One thing that is really spooky and disturbing to me is the idea that someone might have psychiatric issues their whole life, not think that they particularly have any gut issues, and be suffering from gut issues despite having no idea that that's what's causing their psychiatric issues. Is this really possible? The person might experience minor gut issues from time to time, sure. But if you ask them about their gut, they'll say "No...my gut is fine...it's my brain that's all messed up". The idea that the gut is driving the problems but that the gut is displaying no signals or symptoms...that's really disturbing because the patient would never know what the root of the problem is. But is this really a possibility? I'm not sure if researchers would say that this is indeed a thing that can happen and that this is indeed a common thing.
 
FYI, I found this:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0963996918308731

Kefir is a probiotic and fermented dairy product authentically produced from kefir grains. Kefir grain, as a natural starter culture, contains numerous lactic acid bacteria, acetic acid bacteria and yeasts within a polysaccharide structure. True kefir is a miraculous food in terms of its favorable contributions to human health. However, kefir starter cultures used in industrial kefir productions contain very few lactic acid bacteria and yeasts. These starter cultures do not contain characteristic kefir bacteria, such as Lactobacillus kefiranofaciens, Lactobacillus kefiri, and Lactobacillus parakefiri. The objective of this study was to compare the intestinal microorganisms of BALB/c mice fed kefir produced from natural kefir grains and kefir produced from starter culture.

The mice in kefir groups were fed an oral dose of 0.3 mL kefir/day for 15 days, and the control group did not receive kefir. The feces were collected in metabolic cages, and the lactic acid bacteria, yeasts-fungi, and Lactobacillus acidophilus and Bifidobacterium species were determined. Additionally, PCR analysis based on yeast-fungus 23S rRNA was carried out, and serial analysis was performed with an ABI 3100 Genetic Analyzer. Serum total antioxidant status (TAS), serum total oxidant status (TOS) levels, malondialdehyde (MDA) levels and myeloperoxidase (MPO) levels were determined.

The mean lactic acid bacteria (LAB) contents of the feces samples obtained from the mice fed kefir samples produced from kefir grains and starter culture were 9.08 log cfu/g and 7.32 log cfu/g on the 15th day, respectively. Mold was found in both the starter kefir group and in the control group (range, 1.91–2.02 log cfu/g). The mold was identified as Trichoderma koningii, a potential human pathogen and carcinogen. It was very impressive that mold was not observed in the feces samples of the mice fed the kefir produced from kefir grains. The highest TAS value was determined in the serum samples of mice fed kefir produced using kefir grains. MPO values in the small intestines of mice fed kefir produced using starter culture were higher than those in the CK group that was associated with possible inflammation.

This study might lead to new studies focused on the antifungal effects of kefir and on the importance of using kefir grains in the production of kefir.
 
what is the best overall mega-review
Maybe other people can recommend their favorites.

If you see a gut specialist within the medical system then it's not like they're going to test your gut-biota composition, are they?
GI doctors won't. Naturopaths & alt-med docs might.

2: And I have no idea what they'll prescribe for (e.g.) gut dysbiosis; not sure how that's treated. You can do probiotics and prebiotics but how often will they test your gut-biota composition in order to see how it responds to treatment?
It's not diagnosed or treated. If you pay naturopaths and alt-med doctors to tell you otherwise, then they will. There's always someone willing to take your money and tell you what you want to hear.

3: What do you think about kefir? And about Pepto Bismol?
https://humanmicrobiome.info/probiotics/#fermented-foods

Do you know if an incident like that could actually cause like permanent dysbiosis (or some other permanent gut issue)?
It's probably unlikely, but plausible.

1: Also, I don't get how it can be necessary to find "superstar" fecal material in order to get major results with fecal transplantation. I understand why there might be interest in finding the "best of the best" material, especially if it's possible to study and replicate it. But finding like 7/10 or 8/10 material should still yield great results by definition, since you're taking someone who's got terrible gut-biota composition and bringing them way up to an above-average level (even if not a "superstar" level), right?
You can review the HumanMicrobes.org results https://www.humanmicrobes.org/orders and see what that level of donor does. If you're looking for a panacea, like I am, then you need a better donor.

If you look at a superstar athlete like this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Wembanyama) famous basketball player, is that the type of athlete you're looking for?
Victor is an interesting prospect. I don't see any flaws except he's a bit thin, which is to be expected with his height. I would encourage him to apply, but typically, slim people don't have the ideal stool type I'm looking for.

3: If I got a fecal transplant then would I get to choose the donor? How is the donor normally selected when someone gets a transplant? No idea how it works.
Depends where you get it.

One thing that is really spooky and disturbing to me is the idea that someone might have psychiatric issues their whole life, not think that they particularly have any gut issues, and be suffering from gut issues despite having no idea that that's what's causing their psychiatric issues. Is this really possible?
I think that's extremely common. Most people have very dysbiotic gut microbiomes (as evidenced by very poor quality stools, and other physical manifestations), and tons claim to have no gut problems.
 
1: So what should I do regarding my gut dysbiosis or whatever I have? I mean, I can go to a gut specialist but you're saying they might not treat me? Like if my suffering is related to gut biota then I'm screwed, you're saying? Or...?

2: Is this nonsense? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXThkksu68I

3: If I got a fecal transplant then presumably they're pretty intense about finding really good donors, right? Maybe the donors they get their material from are like 7/10 by your standards?
 
I started taking vitamin D. Just 3000 IUs a day. My gut feels a lot better. My sleep is better too. A lot of things are better. It's super weird though because I have no idea how vitamin D is helping me. My brain is doing a LOT better in many ways.

Do you know about the below stuff?

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-77806-4

Vitamin D is a lipid-soluble vitamin that is absorbed from dietary sources or supplements in the proximal small intestine1, and is essential for maintaining skeletal integrity and function2, as well as for electrolyte reabsorption3, and immune system regulation4. In some populations, sub-clinical vitamin D deficiency is common, affecting close to 40% of individuals in both the US5 and Europe6, as well as 80–85% of people living in Arab countries7,8,9,10. This is of particular concern given recent studies revealing the association between vitamin D deficiency and a multitude of diseases including cancer, cardiovascular diseases11,12,13, diabetes, obesity14,15 and inflammatory bowel disease (IBD)16,17. In diabetes18 and IBD19, vitamin D is intimately involved in the regulation of inflammation via a bidirectional relationship with the gut microbiota20,21. Studies also suggest that the amount of dietary vitamin D and its circulating levels may be involved in maintaining immune homeostasis in healthy individuals, partially via modulating the gut microbial composition22. However, it is currently unknown how supplementing otherwise-healthy vitamin D-deficient people affects their gut microbiota.

The thing is that there are different possible ways vitD could help you. Is it directly acting on the brain? Acting through the gut? Seems impossible to narrow down what it might be.
 
1: Regarding your own situation, what exact condition are you trying to cure?

2: What do you make of this?

https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4425/14/7/1506
Nutrition and metabolism modify epigenetic signatures like histone acetylation and DNA methylation. Histone acetylation and DNA methylation in the central nervous system (CNS) can be altered by bioactive nutrients and gut microbiome via the gut–brain axis, which in turn modulate neuronal activity and behavior. Notably, the gut microbiome, with more than 1000 bacterial species, collectively contains almost three million functional genes whose products interact with millions of human epigenetic marks and 30,000 genes in a dynamic manner. However, genetic makeup shapes gut microbiome composition, food/nutrient metabolism, and epigenetic landscape, as well. Here, we first discuss the effect of changes in the microbial structure and composition in shaping specific epigenetic alterations in the brain and their role in the onset and progression of major mental disorders. Afterward, potential interactions among maternal diet/environmental factors, nutrition, and gastrointestinal microbiome, and their roles in accelerating or delaying the onset of severe mental illnesses via epigenetic changes will be discussed. We also provide an overview of the association between the gut microbiome, oxidative stress, and inflammation through epigenetic mechanisms. Finally, we present some underlying mechanisms involved in mediating the influence of the gut microbiome and probiotics on mental health via epigenetic modifications.
 
1: Would you say that the fecal-transplantation thing is getting more popular and getting more resources behind it?

2: If so, if I wait a couple years then is it likely that (here in Canada) I'll be able to get a fecal-transplantation treatment done more cheaply and also with higher-quality fecal material?

3: Are more and more studies coming out all the time demonstrating the effectiveness of the fecal-transplantation thing?

4: What do you make of the below?

https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4425/14/7/1506
As fecal transplantation from patients with autism, schizophrenia, and MDD to germ-free mice induces corresponding disease-like phenotypes associated with related neurochemical and metabolic alterations in the recipient mice, probiotics were shown to be useful in reversing social and cognition deficits by targeting the gut–brain axis [194,195]. The main mechanisms of action of probiotics in reducing social cognition deficits in mental disorders are epigenetic alterations, immuno-modulatory properties, promoting biosynthesis of neurotransmitters, the anti-inflammatory antioxidant potential, and downstream regulation of the hypothalamus-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis [196,197]. In a study by Wang et al. a greater Turicibacter abundance and lower butyric acid levels were reported in a valproic acid (VPA)-induced autism mouse model, and the treatment with Lactobacillus could alleviate autistic-like behaviors by reducing Turicibacter abundance and elevating butyric acid levels [198]. Probiotic therapy is also capable of alleviating memory dysfunction by targeting epigenetic events. In an interesting study by Wang et al., a long-term probiotic supplement resulted in the normalization of the gut microbiome composition, alleviating memory dysfunction in lead-exposed rats by restoring the reduced H3K27me3 (trimethylation of histone H3 Lys 27, an epigenetic mark mediated by EZH2) in the hippocampus of adult rats [199]. In another study, it was shown that L. reuteri PBS072 and B. breve BB077 are excellent probiotic candidates for improving cognitive functions and stress resilience via suppressing the epigenetic enzyme LSD1, increasing gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA), and serotonin [200]. Additionally, Duan et al. reported the anti-neuroinflammatory effect of the potential probiotic Roseburia hominis (R. hominis) and its possible molecular mechanisms in germ-free rats [201]. In their study, R. hominis-treated group could exhibit increased serum levels of propionate and butyrate (as histone deacetylase inhibitors), reduced levels of monocyte chemoattractant protein-1 (MCP-1), interferon-gamma (IFN-γ), and interleukin-1 alpha (IL-1α), and reducing microglial activation compared to germ-free rats. Therefore, gut microbiome-derived metabolites, ketogenic diet, and probiotic therapy can be considered promising remedies to alleviate memory dysfunction and social cognitive deficits in mental disorders by targeting epigenetic events connecting the microbiota-gut-brain axis.
...
Fecal microbiota transplantation is considered a promising strategy for improving human mental health via modulation of the gut–brain axis. Fecal microbiota transplantation is defined as the transfer of intestinal microbiota from one individual to another and typically is carried out through colonoscopy [202]. Fecal microbiota transplantation is still in its infancy stage and should not be considered to be a treatment option outside the research setting owing to concerns regarding its long-term safety and efficacy [203]. It can be used to reshape the gut microbiome and investigate molecular mechanisms involved in the brain function in different diseases [204,205]. For example, Hu et al. constructed a mice model by fecal microbiota transplantation to probe the effects of gut microbiota in the neuropathogenesis (brain TRANK1 (Tetratricopeptide Repeat And Ankyrin Repeat Containing 1) expression and neuroinflammation) of bipolar disorder [206]. In another study, in a rodent model of autism, fecal microbiota transplantation or Bifidobacterium treatment could restore the fecal Clostridium spp. balance and rescue social interaction impairment and hippocampal BDNF expression [207].
Some current studies utilized this experimental procedure to induce mental diseases or improve mental health and prevent gut dysbiosis and anxiety-like behaviors [208]. For example, Giltay et al. reported that fecal microbiota transplantation could confer a decrease in anxiety symptoms and severity of depression in patents with Clostridioides difficile infections four weeks after fecal transplantation [209]. It has been found that the introduction of new species by allogenic fecal microbiota transplantation modulates the plasma metabolome and the epigenome. For instance, it was shown that the introduction of Prevotella ASVs is associated with DNA methylation alterations of actin filament-associated protein 1 (AFAP1) which affect mitochondrial functions and insulin sensitivity [210]. In another study, fecal microbiota transplant by gavage from autistic children to mice could confer the colonization of ASD-like microbiota and autistic behaviors associated with a decrease in DNA methylation of certain inflammatory genes [211]. More studies are required to confirm whether fecal microbiota transplantation can be used as a treatment option for improving mental health in humans by restoring epigenetic aberrations.
 
1: Regarding your own situation, what exact condition are you trying to cure?
Mostly CFS and IBS, but many other symptoms as well, including low brain function and food intolerances. https://forum.humanmicrobiome.info/threads/my-detailed-experiences-lessons-from-13-different-fmt-donors-jun-2018.53/

2: What do you make of this?
Standard info.

1: Would you say that the fecal-transplantation thing is getting more popular and getting more resources behind it?
Slowly, sure.

2: If so, if I wait a couple years then is it likely that (here in Canada) I'll be able to get a fecal-transplantation treatment done more cheaply and also with higher-quality fecal material?
I may be biased because I run humanmicrobes.org, but the situation of FMT from official sources has been that they are not able or motivated to acquire high-quality donors. That is why I started up humanmicrobes.org to find donors myself, and have received over a million donor applicants now. I don't foresee any "official" source of FMT getting a better donor than mine. There is no need for a doctor to do the procedure, so the only thing you'd be waiting for is for FMT to be approved for more conditions, and your doctor could then order the stool directly from my donors and it would be covered by insurance. That is likely decades away, if ever.

The pharma companies are pushing their own "synthetic FMT" versions. They claim/insinuate they're safer, but they're really human-sourced multi-strain probiotics, and do not come close to the benefits of whole stool.

3: Are more and more studies coming out all the time demonstrating the effectiveness of the fecal-transplantation thing?
Yep. A major limiting factor is the inability to obtain high-quality donors, but despite that, studies still largely show FMT to be safe and helpful. We should start to see better results if we can obtain better donors.
 
What do you make of the below that I posted? I don't know how much you know about psychiatry and psychiatric medications. But I wonder what you make of the gastrointestinal aspect of what I talk about below. Regarding the gut itself but also gut biota (!!!), do you think that there's a possible explanation?






1: Regarding ADHD medication, has anyone switched to an unusual delivery mechanism (Jornay? or if not Jornay then something transdermal?) and gotten a massive improvement in terms of how well the drug works? And also in terms of consistency?

2: Are the only possible options that you either ingest something or pursue the transdermal option? I suppose that there's no third choice, correct?

3: Has anyone explored the science around the impact that stomach acid has on ADHD medication? Today I took some Concerta and it was like I'd literally taken nothing at all; there was zero treatment effect. I suppose that I did feel some impact, though, even though it wasn't a treatment effect; since I felt an impact, I guess that the medication wasn't completely obliterated in my stomach acid. I can't come up with an explanation for why the Concerta pills would produce a treatment effect one day and then be basically like sugar pills the next day. I'm curious if I might have an issue with my stomach acid; any pill that you ingest has to go through your stomach before the pill gets to the gut. I have no concept of how acidic your stomach acid would have to get in order to significantly mess with the effectiveness of (e.g.) Concerta pills, but I'd love to know what the science says on this. I'm talking about brand Concerta, incidentally. Not sure if anyone knows anything about this or has looked into this. I should mention the crucial point that I do not (as far as I know) have any symptoms of a stomach-acid problem; you'd think that if my stomach acid were really abnormal then there would be some clues in terms of symptoms.

4: If there's something weird going on with my gut then that might also explain the extreme variability that I experience regarding Concerta (and regarding other ADHD meds, for that matter). No idea how exactly the gut absorbs these ADHD meds or what gut condition might interfere with that absorption.

5: If the ADHD-medication variability that I experience is actually to do with something to do with my brain, then that's super weird to me. How could my brain respond so differently (to the medication) on Tuesday as opposed to Wednesday? I would expect my brain to be chaotic, given my psychiatric troubles, but I just can't imagine what sort of chaos might underlie so much variation in medication response. Weird.

6: I should mention that I underwent a strange "reversal" once; Adderall had been working a little bit, Concerta had been like a sugar pill, and suddenly the reverse was true (Adderall became the sugar pill and Concerta became the distinctly superior option). Maybe I need to re-try Adderall. Regarding this "reversal", I have no idea why my brain would switch back and forth; I wonder if a single scientific paper talks about this annoying "reversal" phenomenon.
 
I experience so much variability in terms of my actual consciousness and in terms of my response to medications. My consciousness is always "in flux", so to speak. And my response to medications is completely chaotic.

I think that you and I are (to some degree) in the same boat. I know that you have dedicated your life (is that fair to say?) to improving the fecal-transplantation thing's effectiveness such that people like yourself will be able to be healthy. I would imagine that your suffering must be way worse than my own. My life is basically like a prison, but I'm not in any kind of pain. I just have the pain of knowing that my life is ticking away and that my potential is being wasted and that I'm not doing various productive and wonderful things; other than that, I just sort of have a "neutral" experience that's neither painful nor enjoyable...I just kind of vegetate as the clock ticks. Regarding your own case, I feel profound sympathy for you; I feel like you have some horrible condition that causes you tremendous pain. That's my impression, anyway; it could be totally wrong.

I say that we're in the same boat because my life is ticking away. I have no idea what's wrong with my brain. I'm in a pretty rotten situation too, sadly.

1: What steps could I take to start to explore whether my gut biota might be implicated in my brain issues? Should I just start to drink probiotics? I just want to make a list of all the measures (going from easiest/cheapest to hardest/priciest) that I can take on the gut-biota front.

2: The below paper might actually describe the cause of the weird variability that I experience, right? I urge you to read this paper because it's really fascinating.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27392632/

It has become increasingly clear that the gut microbiota influences not only gastrointestinal physiology but also central nervous system (CNS) function by modulating signalling pathways of the microbiota-gut-brain axis. Understanding the neurobiological mechanisms underpinning the influence exerted by the gut microbiota on brain function and behaviour has become a key research priority. Microbial regulation of tryptophan metabolism has become a focal point in this regard, with dual emphasis on the regulation of serotonin synthesis and the control of kynurenine pathway metabolism. Here, we focus in detail on the latter pathway and begin by outlining the structural and functional dynamics of the gut microbiota and the signalling pathways of the brain-gut axis. We summarise preclinical and clinical investigations demonstrating that the gut microbiota influences CNS physiology, anxiety, depression, social behaviour, cognition and visceral pain. Pertinent studies are drawn from neurogastroenterology demonstrating the importance of tryptophan and its metabolites in CNS and gastrointestinal function. We outline how kynurenine pathway metabolism may be regulated by microbial control of neuroendocrine function and components of the immune system. Finally, preclinical evidence demonstrating direct and indirect mechanisms by which the gut microbiota can regulate tryptophan availability for kynurenine pathway metabolism, with downstream effects on CNS function, is reviewed. Targeting the gut microbiota represents a tractable target to modulate kynurenine pathway metabolism. Efforts to develop this approach will markedly increase our understanding of how the gut microbiota shapes brain and behaviour and provide new insights towards successful translation of microbiota-gut-brain axis research from bench to bedside. This article is part of the Special Issue entitled 'The Kynurenine Pathway in Health and Disease'.

3: The idea (regarding "tryptophan metabolism" or whatever) is that there are highly important aspects of brain function that might fluctuate up and down in response to the chaotic changes in your gut biota. Is that what the paper is saying? So if your gut biota were messed up then you would just experience a constant set of symptoms. But if your symptoms (and reactions to medication) are all over the place...with wild variation from day to day...then that seems to suggest that your gut biota are always in flux. And that the gut-biota flux leads to the chaos in your brain. Is that what the paper is saying?

4: Is it your understanding that the gut biota are always in flux? And that this flux could (potentially at least...it's just a hypothesis) produce the mysterious variability that psychiatric patients like me experience?
 
I don't know about ADHD medication.

My life is basically like a prison. I just have the pain of knowing that my life is ticking away and that my potential is being wasted and that I'm not doing various productive and wonderful things
I can certainly relate :)

What steps could I take to start to explore whether my gut biota might be implicated in my brain issues? Should I just start to drink probiotics? I just want to make a list of all the measures (going from easiest/cheapest to hardest/priciest) that I can take on the gut-biota front.
See the FAQ https://humanmicrobiome.info/faq/

Is it your understanding that the gut biota are always in flux? And that this flux could (potentially at least...it's just a hypothesis) produce the mysterious variability that psychiatric patients like me experience?
Definitely. It seems to be the case for many/most people with dysbiosis, but high-quality stool donors for example are not in flux.
 
Thanks!

1: Did you see my other comment there too? I posted two comments in a row; sorry about that.

2: What do you make of this ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4855262/ )? It says: "the relative abundance of Bacteroidetes and Firmicutes, and the proportions of Bifidobacteria and Lactobacilli are all important determinants in gut homeostasis and whole-body health"; "Therapies such as antibiotics and FMTs shift the composition of the whole microbiota, altering the relative abundance of the main phyla Bacteroidetes and Firmicutes"; and "therapies such as probiotics and prebiotics promote the growth and colonisation of selective genus of bacteria, such as Lactobacilli and Bifidobacteria". So it's zeroing in on some specific types of gut biota.

3: Do you know all about the below types of gut biota? These types are supposed to hold a lot of promise.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5056568/
To systematically review the effects of probiotics on central nervous system function in animals and humans, to summarize effective interventions (species of probiotic, dose, duration), and to analyze the possibility of translating preclinical studies. Literature searches were conducted in Pubmed, Medline, Embase, and the Cochrane Library. Only randomized controlled trials were included. In total, 38 studies were included: 25 in animals and 15 in humans (2 studies were conducted in both). Most studies used Bifidobacterium (eg, B. longum, B. breve, and B. infantis) and Lactobacillus (eg, L. helveticus, and L. rhamnosus), with doses between 109 and 1010 colony-forming units for 2 weeks in animals and 4 weeks in humans. These probiotics showed efficacy in improving psychiatric disorder-related behaviors including anxiety, depression, autism spectrum disorder (ASD), obsessive-compulsive disorder, and memory abilities, including spatial and non-spatial memory. Because many of the basic science studies showed some efficacy of probiotics on central nervous system function, this background may guide and promote further preclinical and clinical studies. Translating animal studies to human studies has obvious limitations but also suggests possibilities. Here, we provide several suggestions for the translation of animal studies. More experimental designs with both behavioral and neuroimaging measures in healthy volunteers and patients are needed in the future.
 
The more I read on the tryptophan pathway, the more I'm like "This is an extremely plausible explanation for what's wrong with me".

Did you see the below? One of the best things I've ever read about gut biota.

https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/physrev.00018.2018

The importance of the gut-brain axis in maintaining homeostasis has long been appreciated. However, the past 15 yr have seen the emergence of the microbiota (the trillions of microorganisms within and on our bodies) as one of the key regulators of gut-brain function and has led to the appreciation of the importance of a distinct microbiota-gut-brain axis. This axis is gaining ever more traction in fields investigating the biological and physiological basis of psychiatric, neurodevelopmental, age-related, and neurodegenerative disorders. The microbiota and the brain communicate with each other via various routes including the immune system, tryptophan metabolism, the vagus nerve and the enteric nervous system, involving microbial metabolites such as short-chain fatty acids, branched chain amino acids, and peptidoglycans. Many factors can influence microbiota composition in early life, including infection, mode of birth delivery, use of antibiotic medications, the nature of nutritional provision, environmental stressors, and host genetics. At the other extreme of life, microbial diversity diminishes with aging. Stress, in particular, can significantly impact the microbiota-gut-brain axis at all stages of life. Much recent work has implicated the gut microbiota in many conditions including autism, anxiety, obesity, schizophrenia, Parkinson’s disease, and Alzheimer’s disease. Animal models have been paramount in linking the regulation of fundamental neural processes, such as neurogenesis and myelination, to microbiome activation of microglia. Moreover, translational human studies are ongoing and will greatly enhance the field. Future studies will focus on understanding the mechanisms underlying the microbiota-gut-brain axis and attempt to elucidate microbial-based intervention and therapeutic strategies for neuropsychiatric disorders.
 
What do you make of the below?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6351938/
Each individual is provided with a unique gut microbiota profile that plays many specific functions in host nutrient metabolism, maintenance of structural integrity of the gut mucosal barrier, immunomodulation, and protection against pathogens. Gut microbiota are composed of different bacteria species taxonomically classified by genus, family, order, and phyla. Each human’s gut microbiota are shaped in early life as their composition depends on infant transitions (birth gestational date, type of delivery, methods of milk feeding, weaning period) and external factors such as antibiotic use. These personal and healthy core native microbiota remain relatively stable in adulthood but differ between individuals due to enterotypes, body mass index (BMI) level, exercise frequency, lifestyle, and cultural and dietary habits. Accordingly, there is not a unique optimal gut microbiota composition since it is different for each individual. However, a healthy host–microorganism balance must be respected in order to optimally perform metabolic and immune functions and prevent disease development. This review will provide an overview of the studies that focus on gut microbiota balances in the same individual and between individuals and highlight the close mutualistic relationship between gut microbiota variations and diseases. Indeed, dysbiosis of gut microbiota is associated not only with intestinal disorders but also with numerous extra-intestinal diseases such as metabolic and neurological disorders. Understanding the cause or consequence of these gut microbiota balances in health and disease and how to maintain or restore a healthy gut microbiota composition should be useful in developing promising therapeutic interventions.
 
I'm curious about something. You yourself don't have "dysbiosis", I assume, since you know so much about gut biota and therefore you must have achieved "eubiosis". So if you don't have "dysbiosis", how can it be that your gut biota are harming you enough that you're trying to find an optimal stool donor?
 
Back
Top