Is there any chance double layered crapsules don't open at all and pass through whole? Procedure 

J

john silver

New member
Joined
Jan 7, 2025
Messages
11
hello. I don't consider myself to be knowledgeable much about the intestines and microbiome, I've a friend who has gut inflammation and many other symptoms thought to be resulting from severe microbiome dysbiosis, like severe dryness, sleep issues, and bad quality stool, etcetra, anyway, I know it's better to ask a doctor about this but I wanted to ask here first, for them, before they can take crapsules, so, their stomach is 10/10, nothing wrong there, but because of the severe dysbiosis, could the double layered vegan crapsules somehow not dissolve in the small and/or large intestines and get outta the system without getting any of the good bacteria? how much do they dissolve by the stomach's acid and how much by the intestines enzymes (or any other mechanism by the intestine)? I'm sure the dysbiosis greatly affects things, but idk to what extent, just assume the intestines are in the worst shape ever and answer accordingly if you've the relevant knowledge. in the case that yes, the crapsules could get out of the system untouched, would taking digestive enzymes help them dissove in the intestines? or would it actually harm the bacteria instead?
 
It depends on what exact capsules are used. With Human Microbes, we use vegan delayed-release capsules. Gelatin capsules are also common and occasionally used. You can do tests yourself by placing them in various liquids. They expand, soften, and break down within 1 hour usually. No acids or enzymes are needed, just water. So I think it's extremely unlikely that these could make it through the small intestine without breaking down and releasing their contents. Typically, you need special coatings to do that.
 
Michael Harrop said:
It depends on what exact capsules are used. With Human Microbes, we use vegan delayed-release capsules. Gelatin capsules are also common and occasionally used. You can do tests yourself by placing them in various liquids. They expand, soften, and break down within 1 hour usually. No acids or enzymes are needed, just water. So I think it's extremely unlikely that these could make it through the small intestine without breaking down and releasing their contents. Typically, you need special coatings to do that.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
ok, one more question if that's alright, if it lasts one hour, then most cases it opens in the small intestines is that right? so, the small intestine isn't supposed to house a lot of bacteria, sibo risk and all but not just that, wouldn't it go to waste if it opened in the small intestine instead of the colon? would they start living in the small intestine or would they still somehow move to the colon even if all caps opened in the small intestine? I don't really get how it works.
 
john silver said:
the small intestine isn't supposed to house a lot of bacteria, sibo risk and all but not just that, wouldn't it go to waste if it opened in the small intestine instead of the colon?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
FMT is a serious undertaking and it appears that you haven't reviewed the wiki at all. You really need to do that if you don't want to end up worse off.

You can also do a "ctrl+f" in this category (/forums/fecal-microbiota-transplant-fmt/) for "sibo" and see other discussions.

You can also search the wiki for "sibo".
 
so, one question, I read the wiki, but my understanding on microbiomes is still limited, now if i understand correctly, when you take in bacteria, whether upper or lower route fmt, the bacteria ends up spreading around and migrating, is that correct? meaning if delayed release vegan caps open 90% of the time in the small intestine, it should be no problem because they'll move to the colon once the small intestine had enough bacteria right? it's not like they'll only colonize the small intestine if they only opened in the small intestine, also what about lower route? if say it only reached 50% of the colon, can it still migrate to higher areas and all the way to the small intestine too? there was that research that said you can get sibo from lower route only, so, i'm assuming they do move around the entire digestive tract?

also, two more questions if that's alright:

1. is inverting yourself completely the only way to get lower route enema to reach all of the colon? are there any other ways (like filling your intestines with water enema or something? idk)

2. can you still get it to reach all of the colon (with inverted table or not) if there's some food being digested in your intestines? does it have to be completely empty for it to reach deeper levels or there's no difference after a bm vs empty bowels? i'm assuming because it's liquid, it should reach, but I wanted your thoughts.
 
john silver said:
if delayed release vegan caps open 90% of the time in the small intestine, it should be no problem because they'll move to the colon once the small intestine had enough bacteria right?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Generally, that's correct.

john silver said:
if say it only reached 50% of the colon, can it still migrate to higher areas and all the way to the small intestine too?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
There appears to be a benefit if you can coat the whole colon. For instance, this is where colonization resistance comes into play. If you can directly coat an area with the new microbes, that's likely to have a stronger effect vs them having to migrate on their own.

john silver said:
there was that research that said you can get sibo from lower route only, so, i'm assuming they do move around the entire digestive tract?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That's a misunderstanding of "SIBO", which is a bogus diagnosis. What happened was they developed similar symptoms. You should read the intro information here: https://forum.humanmicrobiome.info/threads/my-detailed-experiences-lessons-from-13-different-fmt-donors-jun-2018.53/

Re #2, it depends on various factors.
 
thanks for taking the time to reply.

There appears to be a benefit if you can coat the whole colon. For instance, this is where colonization resistance comes into play. If you can directly coat an area with the new microbes, that's likely to have a stronger effect vs them having to migrate on their own.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I see, so, i'm using vegan delayed release 00 caps for the most part, let's assume they open in the small intestine, would you recommend I encapsulate some of them with a 000 gelatin cap so they open in the colon? if so, how much the ratio of double encapsulated to normal would you recommend?

also, any strategies for lower fmt to reach all of the colon without an inversion table?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top