Comparing commercial FMT providers Sources 

SFBayFMT5

Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2024
Messages
90
This is not correct, and as a science degree holder, you should know better. It may be correct for your personal experience, but for it to be broadly correct the other providers would need to systematically track and publish results. The vast majority of people don't bother to write up a detailed post here when they get worse from one of those other providers; whereas, I specifically demand/require people report their results regardless of the outcome.

One of the people who claims success from one of those providers appears not to be a legimate experience, but rather a paid or incentivized advertiser. Other people make brief comments here and there about getting worse from them.
"Other people make brief comments here and there"--that gives no basis to evaluate the overall success rate of any provider. What you really need is to look for people who have tried more than one provider. Clearly there are people for whom finding the right provider and/or donor is MUCH harder than for others. The guy who runs my most recent provider (which is Gezonde Darmflora btw) says that much--there are many people who get better from MOST donors, and only a few (like you and I) who need to try and try repeatedly in order to find success.

It's likely that the people you will mostly be hearing from in any FMT forum are A) people who tried one or two donors from one provider and had such a good experience that they don't NEED to try any more, B) people who tried one provider/donor and had a bad experience, many of whom won't try any other donors/providers because they're turned off to FMT in general, and C) people who had their first donor be successful, but who relapsed and can't get that donor again, so they have tried one or more other donors, with varying degrees of success. In rather few cases do you see people who had no great success with their first provider, but then tried others--though in some cases you see people who tried multiple donors from one provider when the first one only worked partially.

I have heard several examples of A) with regards to Gezonde Darmflora, and no examples of B. I'm the only one I know of in group C) who has tried them.

With regards to OpenBiome, I haven't seen enough reviews to have a good sense of them--however they were that "first successful donor who we can't get anymore" for me and at least one other person in group C) (whose experience has been cross-posted here). I have not heard a single story of someone who had success with another provider, relapsed, and then tried OpenBiome and failed. That doesn't mean they aren't out there--it might just be the fact that if someone qualified to get one through OpenBiome, they likely were sent there first.

With regards to Microbioma, like with Gezonde Darmflora, I've mostly seen A) and B), in other words very few people who have used them have tried anyone else.

With Taymount, I've almost certainly heard the most B) and a little bit of A), but far behind.

Then you get to Novel Biome and similar outfits that cater mostly to autistic families--there you get reports mostly from parents and not from the patients themselves. I've heard some glowing experiences, but they're out of reach of most people because, like Taymount (for people not living in the UK), they require travel. So adults who are in bad enough shape health wise and/or financially to travel never end up writing reviews.

Finally we get to Human Microbes--aside from myself, I don't recall seeing another person rate HM relative to another provider. You only see people rating one HM donor relative to others. And the few who report being "cured" (which are in the minority) rarely have tried just one HM donor.

So all in all, it's hard to say who has (or in the case of OpenBiome HAD) the best donor pool. The jury is still out.


This is not a factor at all. As noted in my last update, and as you'll see in my next update: 1) I give them the barebones. 2) They largely don't even bother to review that, much less dig deeper in and misconstrue things as in your outline.

So do you tell them that a large number of patients have had dramatic improvement with FMT but can no longer access it--at least not from the same source that helped them before? Is that the gist of what you're saying? We're clearly both in that category--that's the angle we should be pushing. And we should be asking for help finding and testing what it was about those successful experiences that made them successful so we can repeat them.
 
Last edited:
that gives no basis to evaluate the overall success rate of any provider
I agree, and it's something I've criticized people for for many years. By not writing up public, detailed reports of their experiences, they're doing a disservice to themselves and everyone else by not allowing accurate assessments of available sources.

But as is, you can and should pretty much completely disregard any provider who does not publicly track and report results.

What you really need is to look for people who have tried more than one provider.
Again, that's a surprising statement coming from someone who says they have a biology degree. You should know better. There are way too many other contributing factors to why one person may have a certain result. What you need is a large sample size. No other provider even comes close to the public sample size of Human Microbes.

I don't recall seeing another person rate HM relative to another provider. You only see people rating one HM donor relative to others.
That's not correct. There are some in the public spreadsheet. Including people who were harmed by Taymount and Microbioma.

But yes, one problem seems to be that the people using sketchy providers and being harmed from them have poor judgment, which results in them using that provider in the first place, and then not posting publicly about their results, and then not using a better provider to reverse the detriments.

Those providers are conning gullible, poorly informed people, and turning them off to FMT completely.

So all in all, it's hard to say who has (or in the case of OpenBiome HAD) the best donor pool. The jury is still out.
While some people have gotten worse from HM's (Human Microbes) donors, it comes nowhere near the horror stories from the other providers.

Also, HM's results would be even better if not for the fact that I leave up active donors with warnings. In other words, I was going to deactivate each of the most active donors, but some people were still reporting good results, and there were few other options. So instead, I posted warnings (plus the public results), and allowed recipients to make up their own minds about the risk vs reward ratio.

Since you brought it up, I checked and see only 1 Openbiome report on this forum. I'll message some people who've made short reports elsewhere and ask them to post here.

But I don't think it's hard to say, because essentially, if any other provider had anywhere near as good donors & results as HM, they'd be proudly publishing their results like HM does. But Gezonde Darmflora for example, doesn't even have a place for legitimate reviews. https://humanmicrobiome.info/where-to-get-fmt/#gezonde-darmflora

So do you tell them that a large number of patients have had dramatic improvement with FMT but can no longer access it--at least not from the same source that helped them before?
Not really. I link them to the summary I wrote: https://forum.humanmicrobiome.info/threads/the-fda-and-fmt-regulation-part-2-jul-2024-humanmicrobes-org-i-met-wit.520/#post-1370

We're clearly both in that category--that's the angle we should be pushing. And we should be asking for help finding and testing what it was about those successful experiences that made them successful so we can repeat them.
That sounds reasonable. You're welcome and encouraged to write to your legislators about that.
 
Last edited:
Again, that's a surprising statement coming from someone who says they have a biology degree. You should know better. There are way too many other contributing factors to why one person may have a certain result. What you need is a large sample size. No other provider even comes close to the public sample size of Human Microbes.
I mean that there is no way to compare PROVIDERS without receiving data from people who have tried more than one. Saying merely that of five people who ONLY tried Microbioma, for instance, only two improved, while of four who ONLY tried Gezonde Darmflora, all four improved, doesn't necessarily prove in itself that Gezonde Darmflora is better. It may well be--but it also could be that the people who try Microbioma are more desperate because they're on average sicker.

That's why in clinical trials, significant care is taken in the randomization of patients to different treatments, and why a within-subject trial design (when it's feasible) is sometimes used, particularly for small sample sizes.

I am inclined to give a lot more weight to a person who does better with one provider (or even donor) after failing with another, or the reverse, than someone who gets significantly better with the very first donor/provider he/she tries.

And yes, there are factors other than provider that make a difference. Just to briefly summarize, the order as I've experienced it, from best to worst, is:

OpenBiome endoscopy >> GD#7 enema > GD#7 capsules > HM UT-AW (w/glycerol) >> HM UT-AW (no glycerol) (>> or >) GD #3 capsules

where "GD" is Gezonde Darmflora, the numbers are donors, both HM were capsules, every provider other than HM ALWAYS uses glycerol, and ">>" is an especially pronounced, qualitative difference.

So clearly GD is highly dependent on donor, making a bigger difference than glycerol for HM, which was itself a big difference. The point is, if I saw that in a bunch of rankings like this from different patients, Provider (or Donor, or Route) A was almost always ranked before Provider (or Donor or Route) B, I'd be inclined to trust that A was overall better--EVEN IF I also read a few "horror stories" from people who tried ONLY A. There will always be some of those with any treatment--and these could be other people who were encouraged to try A for a similar reason I would be, but who weren't good candidates for FMT in general for some reason.
 
I mean that there is no way to compare PROVIDERS without receiving data from people who have tried more than one.
That's not true though. This is such a fundamental lack of understanding of how evidence and clinical trials work. It's like saying you can't compare clinical trials without having the exact same patients participate in both trials.

If other providers systematically tracked & reported their results like HM does, then with a large enough sample size you could compare them.

Your analogy is mostly correct, but that's because it's a small sample size, and also ignores the fact that something like 50% of people who use Microbioma get worse and develop new conditions.

if I saw that in a bunch of rankings like this from different patients
Of course that would be nice and helpful. I'll send you the info for two people who used Openbiome who I asked to post their reports here but haven't.
 
@SFBayFMT5 PM'd me with some persistent misconceptions of how HM compares to other providers.

Much of this is covered here:

1. Virtually every other provider was founded with a monetary goal. They were an existing business that added FMT as a service, or they were founded as a business.

Many of them are dishonest, unethical, and deploy extremely disreputable tactics to get your money from you and protect their source of income.

HM was founded by a patient (me) for the sole purpose of finding a good enough donor to cure myself, since all the other options were terrible and not genuinely attempting to cure people, but rather do just enough to be able to sell a product.


2. Virtually every other provider operates as a stool bank. This limits their donor pool to people they can find in their local area. Often, they only screen a few dozen people and choose the best option(s) out of them. This generally results in extremely poor donor quality.

HM screened tens of thousands of people before activating a single donor and has now screened over a million people. So you get to choose from the best handful of candidates out of over a million. This includes Olympic gold medalists.

HM is uniquely focused on safety and efficacy.

However, one benefit of being a stool bank is allowing recipients to order a little bit from multiple donors without having to pay for shipping for each donor. HM cannot do this since the donors are all over the country/world and ship directly to recipients.

There are some other benefits associated with operating as a stool bank, but I argue below that they are relatively unimportant.


3. Choice. HM finds and ranks donor candidates, and gives you the information you need to make an informed decision. The rest is up to you.


4. Affordability. I have been poor all my life and have been living off the small government disability payout for most of it. None of the other options were affordable. I assumed that many other sick people would be like me -- either living on disability or having already spent a lot of money trying other treatments. So keeping costs low was a primary goal of mine.

Prices started out dirt cheap and only increased when it seemed necessary to attract higher-quality donors.


5. Transparency. None of the other providers systematically & publicly track and report results. So they're a black box and a very risky dice roll. Many of their patients/customers report spending thousands of dollars only to get worse and develop new conditions from their low-quality donors.

HM aimed to mimic a clinical trial since that is the most scientific approach. Reporting results is mandatory for all recipients, and they are publicly, anonymously, and systematically shared in a spreadsheet: https://www.humanmicrobes.org/orders

This allows recipients to make fully informed choices about the risk vs reward for any specific donor.


6. Testing. Many other sources over-rely on testing because they don't know what they're doing, don't have the motivation to screen large numbers of candidates to find high-quality donors, and boasting about their testing rigor fools uninformed patients/customers.

The reality is that testing can in no way determine safety or efficacy for FMT https://humanmicrobiome.info/testing/. It should be seen as merely the cherry on top after a host of other screening is done.

Regardless, HM does not dictate testing frequency. Recipients can choose to test donors as frequently as they like. I've consistently set up discussion areas where recipients can discuss amongst themselves if they'd like to all chip in to test a new donor or retest an existing one. The vast majority of people do not consider it worth the effort and money. I even set up a private subforum here that recipients could use for this purpose, but it hasn't been used.

The way it worked for most "active" donors is that once there were enough people interested in a certain donor I would split up the cost of testing them, and each recipient would pay $50-100 to get the donor tested.


7. Stool type. I identified stool type as one of the most important factors in determining both safety and efficacy. Despite my publishing it publicly many years ago, every single commercial provider and clinical trial has remained too apathetic to test the hypothesis and factor it into their criteria. Most of their patients/customers are too uninformed to know any better, and such donors are so rare that the providers don't want to put in the effort to find them.

Another patient who has done FMTs from a similar number of donors as me, including members of the Hadza tribe, extensively tested the hypothesis. Our testing confirmed that not only is every stool from the same donor unique but the hypothesis can be applied to parts of stool as well.

Thus, for "rigorous testing" you'd have to:

a) Homogenize the stool, and thus degrade the best parts with the worst parts.
b) Test multiple parts of each stool, or discard the bad parts but still test every single stool.

If a donor is able to consistently select quality stools this seems to largely negate the need for frequent testing. But this certainly needs to be validated.

both of the donors I used had actually recently failed a test
It was mentioned in another thread that two donors from another provider failed a test. HM's donors have never failed a test, because unlike the vast majority of other donor/FMT sources, I don't use testing as a primary tool. So donors who make it through the prior screening are very unlikely to fail any blood or stool test.

The failed test was "only" antibiotic-resistant genes, but this is still something that can be remedied with a better donor: https://humanmicrobiome.info/antibiotics/#fmt-to-counter-antibiotic-resistance


8. Procedural aspects. Things like oxygen exposure, freezing damage, stomach acid, etc., were always things I was well-informed & concerned about. After much testing, it appears that all details other than donor quality are largely insignificant.

So when you point out things that other providers do that HM doesn't, yes, technically it would be an improvement if HM did it, but is it worth the cost for the rather minuscule gain? I say no.

If you're "better" in ways that don't matter, you're not better. You're not even on par. If you choose relatively inconsequential factors to excel at, that makes you inferior.

For example, there is some evidence that you can apply heavy filtration processes to decrease adverse events without a decrease in efficacy: https://forum.humanmicrobiome.info/threads/washed-microbiota-transplantation-improves-sleep-quality-in-patients-w.480/post-1222

But it doesn't negate donor quality. It simply makes bad donors/stools a little less detrimental. High-quality stools do not seem to need this.

Taymount has been filtering their donor stool for many years, yet there are many horror stories of people getting worse and developing new conditions from their low-quality donors.

Another example is having a lab or freezer to freeze stool for months while awaiting test results. A provider who can do this technically bests HM in this one aspect, but how important is that aspect? It's very costly for sure. Do recipients want to bear the huge costs for something relatively unimportant? And again, it's even less useful if you're not testing each stool. Two companies that do it both have patients reporting horrible results.

A recent provider review said the provider purchases -80c lab freezers for their donors, and this makes them "truly dedicated in a way that I haven't seen with other providers". If an -80c lab freezer is not necessary and only increases the cost for recipients, that's not something to praise them for. If recipients are going to store the stool in their -20c home freezers, then you just wasted a lot of money for nothing. Most people like to use/store the stool over many months, so keeping it on dry ice is not something they'll be interested in. Not to mention that my own tests, the scientific evidence, and the reviewer's own experience indicate that it's not needed and might actually be worse.

UMN manufactures FMT in a GMP lab, but their results are terrible.

Another person said they chose another provider because I don't meet the donors in person.

To me, these things are so comparatively unimportant, especially when I do other things to compensate for them, such as video interviews, signed agreements, test shipments, testing the donor myself, sending them to a doctor, etc.



For these reasons, when a person states or implies that any other provider comes close to HM, or that these inconsequential factors are worth choosing another provider over HM, it makes me think the person is either extremely uninformed, a paid advertiser from another provider, or someone with ulterior motives.

If you disagree, feel free to point out specifics and we can discuss them.

Ultimately, if any other provider wants to be seriously considered alongside HM they would first have to start publicly & systematically tracking & reporting results, because results are ultimately what matters.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top