Autologous type-3 FMT (dark brown), Floraphage Autologous

[bizzoc]

Diet is 100% plant based, low fat, 70% raw (veg/fruits, steamed+cooled sweet potatoes at night), 80g+ fiber 20g RS daily for months, but my stool isn't perfect 100% of the time (gets lighter and transitions to type-4). I was curious if using the dark brown, type-3 section as an aFMT would be beneficial to speed up recovery? If I focus on eating the meal that promotes strictly dark brown, type-3 BM's, and then use that, would that be better? My thinking being the corresponding meal is feeding all the "right" bacteria and starving the "wrong"? As well, wouldn't the high fiber content increase the likelihood of type 4 being more prominent, making that also being a good candidate? It was mentioned by one of the members that lighter stools is related to a bile metabolism issue caused by missing microbes, but since mine is intermittently lighter, could it be more to do with a quicker transit time? Perhaps related to rapid fermentation in the small intestines depending on the meal?

I read about low bacteriophages being a likely contributor to poor gut health, but after reading the review of Floraphage from one of the members, it seems it isn't effective or worth my time. Are there any other ways, aside from my current diet and FMT, to restore this? I'm spending a fortune on the diet alone, can't afford to gamble on a possible 1 in 23,000 donor.

I have no symptoms aside from the stool getting lighter/softer depending on the meal, blood work looks good, having a GI MAP test done soon, not sure if I should test the type4-lighter section, or the type3-darker section since it doesn't mean much.

Thanks for reading and any input, much appreciated!

 

[Michael Harrop]

All of this is highly experimental. If you have no symptoms, the risks may not be worth any possible benefit.

 

[bizzoc]

All of this is highly experimental. If you have no symptoms, the risks may not be worth any possible benefit.

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Thanks for the reply. The symptom I wish to correct is the lighter stool color which gets more prominent if I add in grains/beans/lentils, hence the diet. If the rapid fermentation is due to dysbiosis, shouldn't my diet keep their levels low in the stool sample and the benefical bacteria high? If the bacteria causing the rapid fermentation are normally supposed to be there but in reduced numbers, this shouldn't cause any risks because they'll be at lower numbers as they would normally be, only the beneficial omes would be in abundance as evidenced by the ideal dark brown type3 BM?

 

[Michael Harrop]

The symptom I wish to correct is the lighter stool color which gets more prominent if I add in grains/beans/lentils, hence the diet

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That's not a health symptom, so I'd ignore it.

You can experiment to see if you notice any health symptoms associated with those stool changes. If you don't notice any then it's most likely not worth worrying about.

If the rapid fermentation is due to dysbiosis

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It's probably more accurate to see it as missing microbes (a deficiency) rather than dysbiosis. But all of this is still quite speculative.

 

[SFBayFMT5]

It's unlikely that taking your OWN microbes will help you in any way. Whatever microbes you have when your stool is the color/consistency you are aiming for are still in there when it changes, just in different proportions. Diet is causing shifts in the balance, and will still do so just as much even if you ingest microbes from one stool type only. After all, it can cause these changes despite your WHOLE GUT being full of those microbes when your stool is the "right" type, so how would it NOT be able to do so after just a few extra capsules of them?

Add to this what Michael said--if you notice no health differences between when you have the different stool types, it is pure speculation to call one type "healthier" than another.

 

[indigo34]

It's unlikely that taking your OWN microbes will help you in any way.

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There was a study of people recently diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes and autologous FMT helped them. I will link.

https://gut.bmj.com/content/70/1/92

I was curious if using the dark brown, type-3 section as an aFMT would be beneficial to speed up recovery?

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Recovery from what? Are you asking about antibiotic recovery? If so it might be a good idea in theory, as autologous FMT preserved prior to antibiotic exposure has been shown to rapidly restore the microbiome, but it is experimental and speculative to be using stool already exposed to the antibiotic. You may be better off doing something like butyrate supplementation which has also been studied and proven to help antibiotic recovery. If you're not asking about antibiotic recovery feel free to ignore or I'll delete this comment later.

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/fecal-transplants-restore-gut-microbes-after-antibiotics

https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2607/12/2/319

 

[Michael Harrop]

It's unlikely that taking your OWN microbes will help you in any way

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I wouldn't be so sure. Studies have shown both benefits and detriments from aFMT. If it's correct that the dark type 3 stools he wants to ingest are "good" and have a higher percentage of "desirable" microbes, aFMT with those stools could help increase the number of those microbes along the entire digestive tract and thus change the balance of his microbiome, and thus he may be more likely to maintain that stool type when he eats the foods that currently cause his stool to change to another type.

 

[SFBayFMT5]

Recovery from what? Are you asking about antibiotic recovery? If so it might be a good idea in theory, as autologous FMT preserved prior to antibiotic exposure has been shown to rapidly restore the microbiome, but it is experimental and speculative to be using stool already exposed to the antibiotic.

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Yes, this is VERY different. Autologous FMT taken from before one's current health issues started is definitely promising. In fact, this might be even MORE likely to work than FMT from an unrelated donor, whose microbes may not be compatible (in other words, that person's "normal" might not be the same as YOUR "normal").

What I was commenting on was FMT taken from you when you are ill, but simply have stool that "looks healthier", being given back when you are still ill, in hopes of curing you. Everything I've done indicates that the major "barrier" in FMT is getting rare (at least in stool, if not in the small intestine) species from essentially zero abundance up to the point where there is enough of all of them to keep a sustaining population going--from there they can expand/contract as needed over time in order to re-establish a healthy equilibrium--NOT to bring already abundant (i.e. 5% or greater fraction of the microbiome) species, that are nevertheless lower than ideal, up by giving more of them. In other words, the species you most direly need are the ones that NEVER show up in your stool.

 

[indigo34]

What I was commenting on was FMT taken from you when you are ill, but simply have stool that "looks healthier", being given back when you are still ill, in hopes of curing you

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I don't think we have much evidence that OP is ill and looking for a cure.

"I have no symptoms aside from the stool getting lighter/softer depending on the meal, blood work looks good"

 

[bizzoc]

I believe it was mentioned in a sticky that the best FMT donors are ones that are dark brown and type 3, which mine are not consistently without significant dietary mods. This is what I'm trying to correct after multiple rounds of antibiotics, the last one being 1.5yrs ago. I know that the standard american diet or high fat/protein diets negatively affect the biome, so perhaps that's why they've been "stuck" at lower population numbers. I will keep up the plant based low fat diet for as long as possible and see what the upcoming GI MAP test shows. Would a child that was given antibiotics during breastfeeding likely have the "rare" strains, if they continued breastfeeding for years after and the mother is healthy? Would it be likely that after 1yr, a low abundance "rare" strain would be eliminated due to a low fiber diet? I even tried high dose resistant starch for a couple months and it did help with other aspects, but not with carb digestion. Would there be harm in consuming carbs if it causes the yellow stool? I was thinking of excess bile causing inflammation or negatively affecting the non-bile resistant microbes, or the undigested carbs feeding some pathogen or opportunistic bacteria, etc.

It's probably more accurate to see it as missing microbes (a deficiency) rather than dysbiosis. But all of this is still quite speculative.

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I had a basic stool test performed (Viome) that confirmed the presence of the "popular" complex carb fermenting strains (F. prausnitzii, Roseburia, and B. adolescentis) 1.5yrs ago after my last antibiotic round, so I thought they would've made a comeback by now. Only one that was missing was Prevotella, but I'm hoping it was just too low to detect. I would think if they were completely missing, I would have more symptoms such as bloating/discomfort or excessive gas?

It's unlikely that taking your OWN microbes will help you in any way. Whatever microbes you have when your stool is the color/consistency you are aiming for are still in there when it changes, just in different proportions. Diet is causing shifts in the balance, and will still do so just as much even if you ingest microbes from one stool type only. After all, it can cause these changes despite your WHOLE GUT being full of those microbes when your stool is the "right" type, so how would it NOT be able to do so after just a few extra capsules of them?

Add to this what Michael said--if you notice no health differences between when you have the different stool types, it is pure speculation to call one type "healthier" than another.

Click to shrink...

What I was commenting on was FMT taken from you when you are ill, but simply have stool that "looks healthier", being given back when you are still ill, in hopes of curing you. Everything I've done indicates that the major "barrier" in FMT is getting rare (at least in stool, if not in the small intestine) species from essentially zero abundance up to the point where there is enough of all of them to keep a sustaining population going--from there they can expand/contract as needed over time in order to re-establish a healthy equilibrium--NOT to bring already abundant (i.e. 5% or greater fraction of the microbiome) species, that are nevertheless lower than ideal, up by giving more of them. In other words, the species you most direly need are the ones that NEVER show up in your stool.

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Yes, so I acknowledge that the microbes present wouldn't change, only their relative proportions, but I just thought in order to get my lower population numbers up, taking some is better than taking none. I am excited to see what the GI MAP shows is missing now.

I don't think we have much evidence that OP is ill and looking for a cure.

"I have no symptoms aside from the stool getting lighter/softer depending on the meal, blood work looks good"

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correct, not significantly ill, but it's one of those things where it's best to deal with a big problem while it's still a little problem. I have spent the past 2yrs getting to where I am now, but I seem stuck and it seems like FMT is the only way out. I guess if the GI MAP confirms a missing critical strain, I have my answer.

 

[SFBayFMT5]

I believe it was mentioned in a sticky that the best FMT donors are ones that are dark brown and type 3, which mine are not consistently without significant dietary mods. This is what I'm trying to correct after multiple rounds of antibiotics, the last one being 1.5yrs ago. I know that the standard american diet or high fat/protein diets negatively affect the biome, so perhaps that's why they've been "stuck" at lower population numbers. I will keep up the plant based low fat diet for as long as possible and see what the upcoming GI MAP test shows. Would a child that was given antibiotics during breastfeeding likely have the "rare" strains, if they continued breastfeeding for years after and the mother is healthy? Would it be likely that after 1yr, a low abundance "rare" strain would be eliminated due to a low fiber diet? I even tried high dose resistant starch for a couple months and it did help with other aspects, but not with carb digestion. Would there be harm in consuming carbs if it causes the yellow stool? I was thinking of excess bile causing inflammation or negatively affecting the non-bile resistant microbes, or the undigested carbs feeding some pathogen or opportunistic bacteria, etc.

I had a basic stool test performed (Viome) that confirmed the presence of the "popular" complex carb fermenting strains (F. prausnitzii, Roseburia, and B. adolescentis) 1.5yrs ago after my last antibiotic round, so I thought they would've made a comeback by now. Only one that was missing was Prevotella, but I'm hoping it was just too low to detect. I would think if they were completely missing, I would have more symptoms such as bloating/discomfort or excessive gas?




Yes, so I acknowledge that the microbes present wouldn't change, only their relative proportions, but I just thought in order to get my lower population numbers up, taking some is better than taking none. I am excited to see what the GI MAP shows is missing now.


correct, not significantly ill, but it's one of those things where it's best to deal with a big problem while it's still a little problem. I have spent the past 2yrs getting to where I am now, but I seem stuck and it seems like FMT is the only way out. I guess if the GI MAP confirms a missing critical strain, I have my answer.

Click to shrink...

In my opinion, FMT is FAR too much of a gamble to be valuable if you have no health issues! In other words, it isn't something you do that's comparable to taking a bit of extra B vitamins or adding more leafy greens to your diet. Yes, for those of us with intractable health issues it can be an absolute godsend, but if you don't have problems, why in the WORLD would you risk picking up a microbe that might harm you (even if it's your own stool, what if the tools you use to process it have some kind of problematic environmental bacteria on them)? It's a bit like injecting yourself with with "extra" insulin (even if extracted from your own blood) in the hope that it will somehow prevent you from developing diabetes a decade from now.

However, if it's at all an option, and if you are facing any kind of long-term antibiotics, I'd seriously recommend banking your own stool now to re-populate later. I'm not aware of any business that does this, at least in the US, but if in your area of the world there IS one, I'd definitely take advantage.

 

[Michael Harrop]

Would a child that was given antibiotics during breastfeeding likely have the "rare" strains, if they continued breastfeeding for years after and the mother is healthy?

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Not necessarily. Breastfeeding is not the only, nor a complete, method of transfer from mother to child, and the mother would need to have the strains herself.

Would there be harm in consuming carbs if it causes the yellow stool?

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Plausibly. But it's highly speculative.

I had a basic stool test performed (Viome) that confirmed the presence of the "popular" complex carb fermenting strains (F. prausnitzii, Roseburia, and B. adolescentis)

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Those are genera and species, not strains.

 

[bizzoc]

Yes, for those of us with intractable health issues it can be an absolute godsend, but if you don't have problems, why in the WORLD would you risk picking up a microbe that might harm you...

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The possibility of exposure to a harmful microbe exists in many everyday activities, including eating out, swimming in a pool/lake, or even a public restroom. Are you suggesting people go through life at reduced health knowing how to fix the problem is relatively easy (taking FMT pills) but not pursue it? I would think the logical course of action would be to control as many variables as possible when screening donors (medical history, preferably a friend's kid under 10yrs old, etc) and be prepared with some herbal antimicrobials if required. I will not settle for a consolation prize for my health. If the GI MAP confirms the absence of critical species, there is no other option to restore them. If however it shows them present but in low quantities, I will continue with this ludicrous diet.

 

[bizzoc]

Those are genera and species, not strains.

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My apologies, I was under the impression that if a person had the correct genera and species of complex carb-digesting bacteria, consuming the right food sources would help them flourish and grow more of the related strains. I understand that strains are a more specific level of categorization, but the general concept of supporting microbial growth with proper nutrients still holds true, correct?