Antiparasitics - Effects on the human microbiome in comparison to antibiotics and antifungals

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IsthmusSIBO

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Follow-up from original thread posted by @Michael Harrop https://forum.humanmicrobiome.info/threads/an-anti-parasitic-medication-ivermectin-shifted-amazonian-villagers-mi.1378/

Hello, I want to continue from the previous thread because there is no proper entry in the “Interventions” section of the wiki about antiparasitics as there is one for antibiotics, so it seems this was the de facto thread about it until now.

According to this thread, it seems that the consensus on the damage caused by antiparasitics to the microbiome seems mixed in comparison to the effect of antibiotics.

So, just like bacteria, we know some parasites are more beneficial (like some helminths) and others are fully pathogenic.

But… despite the effect of introducing or killing things, it’s not clear to me:

Are antiparasitics safer than antibiotics in a way? It seems we have more bacteria, bacteriophages, viruses, fungi than parasites, so maybe removing parasites is not as dangerous? Specially because of the Hookworm study in the thread saying that uninfected and individuals with abendazole had a similar microbiome, suggesting that healthy peope who hadn’t used the antiparasitic and treated people had more similarities, despite antimicrobial treatment.

Then again, @indigo34 did say that some professionals use weak/“safe” helminths to treat IBD, so there is that.

Still, I am not sure lacking a few parasites is the sole cause of IBD (rather multi-microbe dysbiosis + genetic interactions + diet), and the person who did FMT from HM with Helminths muddied the question even more (personally, I say the FMT helped her/him more 🤷‍♂️).

Dysbiosis can be many things. All we know is that it presents in two ways, one of the most common being missing microbes. Sadly, with the current literature, nobody can truly say if those missing microbes are always bacteria and phages all of the time. For a few, they could be viruses, fungi, or helminths even, and the success, despite high quality donor being the biggest requirement, can be mediated by what the recipient lacks specifically. Aka, donor matching.

We also know donor matching is not as important as quality. Yet, this issue could still be a missed factor (along with others, like clearing the existing biome) in the the rate of permanent success with a top donor.
 
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IsthmusSIBO said:
Are antiparasitics safer than antibiotics in a way? It seems we have more bacteria, bacteriophages, viruses, fungi than parasites, so maybe removing parasites is not as dangerous?
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Based on what I've read, I would say "yes".
 
"Antibiotics" has its own large page. I don't think there are enough studies on the others to make new pages for them. So keeping it to a forum thread should be sufficient for now. You're welcome to make a big compilation/collection of studies, and I'll look it over and consider it.
 
Michael Harrop said:
"Antibiotics" has its own large page. I don't think there are enough studies on the others to make new pages for them. So keeping it to a forum thread should be sufficient for now. You're welcome to make a big compilation/collection of studies, and I'll look it over and consider it.
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Okay, will update this thread when I find more than the original thread. What number should be aimed for? 4 reviews and 10-15 papers?
 
I had a parasite, fungal infection, candida overgrowth of course all leading to severe gut dysbiosis, severe sleep issues, skin rashes, heavy metals, constipation and so forth. While my diet needed to be addressed at that time (i have in a big way). I clearly had a bad bug problem. I did a 3-month parasite cleanse (herbs such as wormwood, black walnut) that help address all of this including water enemas and coffee enemas. There was an immediate positive effect on doing this. I've asking myself why did the body allow them? Dr Dietrich Klinghard in a interview talks about how the body makes a pact with these guys (bad bugs).Why you ask? Because they fill in the gaps in the system that the body (deficient gut biome) can't do. For example, its known that a parasite can consume up to 20x their size or more in heavy metals. Which in turn takes a strain off the body. Granted they come with their own problems, but the body is trying to find balance in which... any way it can. This was my experience... hands down. It been a journey in detoxification that i've had to complete methodically, while not overdoing it. Because it overwhelms the system when i do.

Used Markus Rothkranz parasite cleanse (pills taken over 90 days) wipes out parasite in their different stages, mold, and so on. So as i cleansed and changed my eating a lot healing happened. But its become clear they are filling in the gaps of native bacteria that's been wiped out.

There's another interview with the main guy from Canadian company that sells "crapsules" to clinics in Canada and US. The interviewer who had just completed his treatment with them, discussed said results. They discussed his outcome, lab results before and after and so forth. One thing discussed, was that he clearly had a fungal issue before the treatment that needed to be addressed. Yet they found it was gone, no issues after completion of FMT. Highlighting how our body and these bugs have a natural intelligence and will automatically fill in missing gaps, or balance out, or simply displacing bad bugs.

My personal experience, I feel that that's why probiotics work at times and other times don't. Should the person have got lucky and has the right probiotic (strain), dosage and takes at the right time (morning or before meal or at night before bed). It serves as a stop-gap for the missing native strain. There's a relief of symptoms, but in the end its just a band-aid,... so FMT.
 
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